Wet bar recpt. Requirements
- Thread starter Bam
- Start date
- Status
- Location
- Chapel Hill, NC
- Occupation
- Retired Electrical Contractor
construct
Senior Member
- Location
- Branson, Missouri
I agree with Dennis.
- Location
- Simi Valley, CA
The real difference is that "all" receptacles within 6' of the sink must be GFCI protected, not just serving the counter top(s). But I agree that there are no layout or even receptacle requirements for a wet bar.
marti smith
Senior Member
Not I. 210.52 (C) is for countertops, notes the rorms and then says "similar areas". IMO, it should be laid out similarly to a kitchen as it is a similar area, as a kitchen. Probably the best solution is to get your opposing AHJ's together and have a discussion.
chris kennedy
Senior Member
- Location
- Miami Fla.
- Occupation
- 60 yr old tool twisting electrician
I'm with Marti on this.
- Location
- Lockport, IL
- Occupation
- Retired Electrical Engineer
That was added in 2008, and kept in 2011. The 2005 just said "kitchens." So it matters which code cycle applies to the installation. It also matters how this alleged "countertop" is constructed. Does it sit up against a wall, or does it look more like a peninsula or an island. Finally, it could be argued that this horizontal surface is not a "countertop," a word that is not defined in the NEC. I can envision a flat surface with legs (almost like a table), with a sink at one end, and with space under the flat surface for the legs of a person sitting on a stool. That is not a "countertop."
All that said, I would have a hard time arguing that a wet bar is not "similar" to the collection of rooms that are now named in that article.
renosteinke
Senior Member
- Location
- NE Arkansas
I think we're going off on a wrong turn.
If there is any uncertainty in the code, it ought to be construed in the narrowest possible manner. In effect, this principle would render the term 'similar areas' meaningless.
Our system is based upon the precept that laws exist to serve the people and limit the government - not the other way around. Likewise, the NEC is not a 'design guide.' Using the NEC to enforce a 'best' method is using it for design purposes.
Even in the narrowest sense, there's no reason to assume that a 'wet bar' needs any receptacles serving the counter at all. A lot depends on the specific design and intent of the space. Maybe there will be a blender used - or maybe it will only be used to rinse out the occasional glass.
If there is any uncertainty in the code, it ought to be construed in the narrowest possible manner. In effect, this principle would render the term 'similar areas' meaningless.
Our system is based upon the precept that laws exist to serve the people and limit the government - not the other way around. Likewise, the NEC is not a 'design guide.' Using the NEC to enforce a 'best' method is using it for design purposes.
Even in the narrowest sense, there's no reason to assume that a 'wet bar' needs any receptacles serving the counter at all. A lot depends on the specific design and intent of the space. Maybe there will be a blender used - or maybe it will only be used to rinse out the occasional glass.
kwired
Electron manager
- Location
- NE Nebraska
If the wet bar is a kitchen or other similar area it will be required to have outlets that are part of SABC's. If it has permanent provisions for food prep and cooking then it is a kitchen.
- Location
- Chapel Hill, NC
- Occupation
- Retired Electrical Contractor
How is a wet bar a kitchen. If I install a wet bar in my living room or bedroom it is nothing more than a wet bar. If I install a counter, in my bedroom, without a sink is that to be wired as a kitchen? IMO, NO.... So why does a sink make it similar to a kitchen. It is similar to a bathroom counter more than a kitchen.
Point is if I have a wet bar I would have receptacles on the counter- they just don't need the spacing of a kitchen.
Point is if I have a wet bar I would have receptacles on the counter- they just don't need the spacing of a kitchen.
renosteinke
Senior Member
- Location
- NE Arkansas
It's that reference to 'similar areas' that is the camel's nose under the tent flap.
Sure, absent permanent cooking facilities - a microwave sitting on the counter doesn't count - keeps it from being a 'kitchen.' Yet, we are required to serve dining rooms with an SABC, and they don't have cooking facilities. The next step is to not only require countertop receptacles, but to require that they be served by two SABC's.
One size never fits all.
Sure, absent permanent cooking facilities - a microwave sitting on the counter doesn't count - keeps it from being a 'kitchen.' Yet, we are required to serve dining rooms with an SABC, and they don't have cooking facilities. The next step is to not only require countertop receptacles, but to require that they be served by two SABC's.
One size never fits all.
- Location
- Tennessee NEC:2017
- Occupation
- Semi-Retired Electrician
IMHO, the only requirement you should be concerned about is the GFCI receptacle within 6' of the sink at the wet bar.
kwired
Electron manager
- Location
- NE Nebraska
To stir things a little more -
If a wet bar is a "similar area" and needs to follow kitchen requirements then many patios should need to follow kitchen requirements also.
If a wet bar is a "similar area" and needs to follow kitchen requirements then many patios should need to follow kitchen requirements also.
- Location
- Simi Valley, CA
That's shaken, not stired.
rcarroll
Senior Member
- Location
- Fort Collins, Colorado
Arc fault protection is also required for the outlets if the wet bar is located in any room listed in 210.12(B).
jimthesparks
Member
- Location
- Chicago, IL
This is the most correct statement because they will have final say if it passes or not.
- Location
- Simi Valley, CA
Well, just because they all agree, doesn't mean they're not wrong.:roll:
Did I just say that out loud?
kwired
Electron manager
- Location
- NE Nebraska
And that brings us back to whether or not it is a kitchen because kitchens are not listed in 210.12(B)
jimthesparks
Member
- Location
- Chicago, IL
I never said they would be right I was saying that sometimes it is better not to fight city hall but work with them.Well, just because they all agree, doesn't mean they're not wrong.:roll:
Did I just say that out loud?
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