400 tap

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normbac

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400 amp fused switchgear with disco has parallel 3/0 to 24x24 j box in a TI were doing Engineer shows two 200amp panels being tapped off the two sets of 3/0 but does not specify whether a main cb is needed on the 200amp panels switch gear is at end of same building on exterior. Is it compliant to use MLO panels :?
TIA
 

david luchini

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408.36 requires that a panelboard be protected by an OCPD having a rating not greater than the panelboard. The 400A fuse would not provide the proper protection to a 200A panelboard per this section. I would say the panels need to be MCB type, or the need a 200A OCPD installed in the supply to the panelboards.
 

dana1028

Senior Member
Sounds like you have a 240.21(B)(5) - 'Outside Taps of Unlimited Length' - scenario.

IF you meet all the requirements of this section you comply.

Yes, it appears [240.21(B)(5))(2) requires 'the conductors terminated at a single circuit breaker or ...set of fuses that limit the ampacity of the conductors.
 

mull982

Senior Member
I would say this is a two step thought process.

1) The 200A panelboard bus needs to be protected by an OCPD rated 200A or less in order to protect the panel. This OCPD can be a main in the panel itself or can bu an upstream breaker with a MLO panel. In this case however the upstream 400A breaker cannot adequately protect the panel with MLO so a main breaker is required.

2) Secondly you need to look at this from a cable perspective. If the cables are tapped they would need to terminate into a single ocpd in the panel which would be a main breaker. In this case the tapped cable would be sized according to the tap rule. You cannot have a tapped conductor terminate in a panel without terminating in a single OCPD so it would be a violation for this tapped conductor to terminate in a MLO panel with several OCPD branch breakers.
 

infinity

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2) Secondly you need to look at this from a cable perspective. If the cables are tapped they would need to terminate into a single ocpd in the panel which would be a main breaker. In this case the tapped cable would be sized according to the tap rule. You cannot have a tapped conductor terminate in a panel without terminating in a single OCPD so it would be a violation for this tapped conductor to terminate in a MLO panel with several OCPD branch breakers.

Are you saying this due to 408.36 or because of a tap rule?
 

tx2step

Senior Member
Do you have to tap?

Do you have to tap?

Instead of tapping off of the two parallel sets of #3/0 Cu with one set of #3/0 Cu at each panel, is there any reason that you couldn't just terminate set "A" of the parallel #3/0 into Panel A (which would have a 200A MCB), and terminate set "B" of the parallel #3/0 into Panel B (which would also have a 200A MCB)???
 

infinity

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Becasue of the tap rule

What if it's under the 10' tap rule?

Instead of tapping off of the two parallel sets of #3/0 Cu with one set of #3/0 Cu at each panel, is there any reason that you couldn't just terminate set "A" of the parallel #3/0 into Panel A (which would have a 200A MCB), and terminate set "B" of the parallel #3/0 into Panel B (which would also have a 200A MCB)???

That would still be a tap.
 

inspector141

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Location
Westminster, MD
Instead of tapping off of the two parallel sets of #3/0 Cu with one set of #3/0 Cu at each panel, is there any reason that you couldn't just terminate set "A" of the parallel #3/0 into Panel A (which would have a 200A MCB), and terminate set "B" of the parallel #3/0 into Panel B (which would also have a 200A MCB)???

In this case each set of 3/0 conductors would then be tap conductors and would have to meet the distance rules set forth in 240.21.

However, if the two sets of non-parallel conductors are outside, each set can travel any length and must terminate in a 200 amp mcb panel. If this is your situation, it makes sense to not parallel the sets.
 

kwired

Electron manager
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NE Nebraska
In this case each set of 3/0 conductors would then be tap conductors and would have to meet the distance rules set forth in 240.21.

However, if the two sets of non-parallel conductors are outside, each set can travel any length and must terminate in a 200 amp mcb panel. If this is your situation, it makes sense to not parallel the sets.

If both 200 amp panels are in same area and you have a long feed it could be a good idea to use the parallel conductor option to effectively make a single larger conductor for voltage drop reasons.


The taps do not have to terminate in a mcb panel they just have to terminate at a single overcurrent device that is set for ampacity of the conductors or less. Mcb panel is typically most convenient option to do this.
 

david luchini

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However, if the two sets of non-parallel conductors are outside, each set can travel any length and must terminate in a 200 amp mcb panel. If this is your situation, it makes sense to not parallel the sets.

Although its seems fairly common to run two non-parallel sets from a larger OCPD and terminate them on smaller OCPDs and call them "taps," (such as two non-parallel sets of #3/0 from a 400A OCPD each running to a 200A OCPD) I think this would technically be in violation of the NEC.

A tap conductors is defined as a conductor that has overcurrent protection ahead of its point of supply that exceeds the value permitted for similar conductors...

240.21 says that overcurrent protection shall be provided in each ungrounded conductor and shall be located at the point where the conductors receive their supply, except as specified in 240.21(A) thru (H).

240.21(B) says that conductors shall be permitted to be tapped, without overcurrent protection at the tap, to a feeder as specified in 240.21(B)(1) thru (B)(5).

The point of supply of the two #3/0 sets is the 400 OCPD. They have overcurrent protection at (rather than ahead of) their point of supply which exceeds the value permitted for similar conductors. They would not by definition be taps, and they would not be properly protected per 2401.21.
 

infinity

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Although its seems fairly common to run two non-parallel sets from a larger OCPD and terminate them on smaller OCPDs and call them "taps," (such as two non-parallel sets of #3/0 from a 400A OCPD each running to a 200A OCPD) I think this would technically be in violation of the NEC.

A tap conductors is defined as a conductor that has overcurrent protection ahead of its point of supply that exceeds the value permitted for similar conductors...

240.21 says that overcurrent protection shall be provided in each ungrounded conductor and shall be located at the point where the conductors receive their supply, except as specified in 240.21(A) thru (H).

240.21(B) says that conductors shall be permitted to be tapped, without overcurrent protection at the tap, to a feeder as specified in 240.21(B)(1) thru (B)(5).

The point of supply of the two #3/0 sets is the 400 OCPD. They have overcurrent protection at (rather than ahead of) their point of supply which exceeds the value permitted for similar conductors. They would not by definition be taps, and they would not be properly protected per 2401.21.

I disagree with your analysis. The conductor, in this case the lugs are rated for 400 amps and the two sets of #3/0 are connected to it making them tap conductors subject to the tap rules. If you had a 2' piece of 600 kcmil after the 400 amp OCPD and connected the two sets of #3/0's would you consider that to be a tap?
 

david luchini

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I disagree with your analysis. The conductor, in this case the lugs are rated for 400 amps and the two sets of #3/0 are connected to it making them tap conductors subject to the tap rules. If you had a 2' piece of 600 kcmil after the 400 amp OCPD and connected the two sets of #3/0's would you consider that to be a tap?

We will have to agree to disagree. The breaker is a device, by definition. The lugs of the breaker are part of the Overcurrent Protective Device. Feeders, by definition, are the circuit conductors between the service equipment and the final branch circuit overcurrent device.

Does a feeder stop at the lugs of the final branch circuit overcurrent device? Or past the lugs to the internal bussing of the final branch circuit overcurrent device? Or at the contacts of the circuit breaker? I'd say the the feeder stops at the lugs, because the lugs are part of the "device."

And yes, I'd say adding a 2' piece of 600mcm, and then tapping off would be perfectly legal. I'm not saying that there is any electrical logic behind this, I'm just saying that is the way the code is written.
 

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
We will have to agree to disagree. The breaker is a device, by definition. The lugs of the breaker are part of the Overcurrent Protective Device. Feeders, by definition, are the circuit conductors between the service equipment and the final branch circuit overcurrent device.

Does a feeder stop at the lugs of the final branch circuit overcurrent device? Or past the lugs to the internal bussing of the final branch circuit overcurrent device? Or at the contacts of the circuit breaker? I'd say the the feeder stops at the lugs, because the lugs are part of the "device."

And yes, I'd say adding a 2' piece of 600mcm, and then tapping off would be perfectly legal. I'm not saying that there is any electrical logic behind this, I'm just saying that is the way the code is written.

What is your opinion if the tap is made to a bus bar or other conductor not listed in chapter 9 tables?

Where the tap starts at an overcurrent device connection lug do you have to have a "feeder conductor"? Electrically all the current still passes through the overcurrent device, through the lugs, and is branched to each feeder tap. Is not the overcurrent protection of the tap conductors what the 240.21 rules are all about. Having that one more segment of full sized conductor, even if only a few inches long, is going to make it any more, or less, safer?

How about installing the two 3/0 conductors on a 400 amp OCPD and a few inches from the lugs install a compression connector between the two 3/0 conductors effectively making them parallel conductors for just a few inches. This would comply with what you are saying but still seems pointless to do so.
 

david luchini

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What is your opinion if the tap is made to a bus bar or other conductor not listed in chapter 9 tables?

A tap can be made to any type of feeder conductor, per 240.21(B). I just don't think that by definition, the breaker lugs are feeder conductors. They are a part of the overcurrent device.

Where the tap starts at an overcurrent device connection lug do you have to have a "feeder conductor"? Electrically all the current still passes through the overcurrent device, through the lugs, and is branched to each feeder tap. Is not the overcurrent protection of the tap conductors what the 240.21 rules are all about. Having that one more segment of full sized conductor, even if only a few inches long, is going to make it any more, or less, safer?

If the "tap" started at the overcurrent device lug, you would have a "feeder conductor." However, those "feeder conductors" (lets say the separate sets of #3/0) are not properly protected against overcurrent protection per 240.4 and 240.21. You would have 3/0 feeder conductors being protected by a 400A OCPD. 240.21 says that conductors shall have overcurrent protection "located at the point the conductors receive their supply." The point that the #3/0 conductors receive their supply is at the lugs of the 400A overcurrent protective device. The have overcurrent protection AT their point of supply which exceeds the value permitted for similar conductors...rather than AHEAD of their point of supply. The do not meet the definition of tap conductors in 240.2.

How about installing the two 3/0 conductors on a 400 amp OCPD and a few inches from the lugs install a compression connector between the two 3/0 conductors effectively making them parallel conductors for just a few inches. This would comply with what you are saying but still seems pointless to do so.

Yes, that would be perfectly compliant. The parallel sets of #3/0 have an ampacity of 400. The point that this feeder receives its supply is the 400A OCPD. This complies with 240.4 as far as protecting the conductors at their ampacity, and with 240.21 as far as having an OCPD at the point the conductors receive their supply. Then two sets of #3/0 conductors run from the compression connector to separate devices. Each of these sets has an ampacity of 200. The point the receive their supply is the "tap" location from the 400A feeder. Each set has overcurrent protection (the 400A c/b) "ahead of its point of supply" that exceeds the value permitted for similar conductors. Each set is permitted to have its overcurrent protection (say a 200A c/b) where it terminates per 240.21(B).

Again, I'm not saying that there is any electrical logic to this, or that this is somehow safer, or that there is any specific point to be made or gained by doing this. I'm saying that this is what the language of the code requires. As we all know, the code isn't always entirely logical.
 

inspector141

Senior Member
Location
Westminster, MD
Although its seems fairly common to run two non-parallel sets from a larger OCPD and terminate them on smaller OCPDs and call them "taps," (such as two non-parallel sets of #3/0 from a 400A OCPD each running to a 200A OCPD) I think this would technically be in violation of the NEC.

A tap conductors is defined as a conductor that has overcurrent protection ahead of its point of supply that exceeds the value permitted for similar conductors...

240.21 says that overcurrent protection shall be provided in each ungrounded conductor and shall be located at the point where the conductors receive their supply, except as specified in 240.21(A) thru (H).

240.21(B) says that conductors shall be permitted to be tapped, without overcurrent protection at the tap, to a feeder as specified in 240.21(B)(1) thru (B)(5).

The point of supply of the two #3/0 sets is the 400 OCPD. They have overcurrent protection at (rather than ahead of) their point of supply which exceeds the value permitted for similar conductors. They would not by definition be taps, and they would not be properly protected per 2401.21.

David- What if the two sets of 3/0 are connected to the 400 ocpd and feed into a trough. In the trough the feeder conductors are connected to a lug assembly(landing blocks, etc). At the terminals of the lug assembly, conductors are connected for a tap. According to your strict definition, this would not be allowed because the lugs are not feeder conductors.

We all know my example meets the intent of 240.21 perfectly. I do not believe the code needs to add additional language to include a lug as part of a feeder conductor. It obviously is. Adding language to cover every possible scenario is sometimes not a good solution.

I don't like leaving this as a "agree to disagree" discussion. Either we should all accept this as perfectly acceptable/compliant, or we should try to add language to 240.21(B)..."Conductors and their associated connections...."

Often times discussions like this help in making the code better understood or to making positive changes in the code.
 

normbac

Senior Member
The electrical engineer is ok with this but he wants the splice to be within 10 ft of panels citing 240.21 b1. Is there a way to keep the splice 30 ft away and be code compliant we ar unable to have within 10 ft due to tight
To be clear the switchgear is outside of building 150 ft of parallel conduit with 3/0 run through
inside of building to a 24x24 pullbox then spliced to two 200 amp panels with msb 30ft away
Thanks for all input please cite code if it is doable
Also the parallel feed at the 400 amp gear is fused mlo
 
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kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
The electrical engineer is ok with this but he wants the splice to be within 10 ft of panels citing 240.21 b1. Is there a way to keep the splice 30 ft away and be code compliant we ar unable to have within 10 ft due to tight
To be clear the switchgear is outside of building 150 ft of parallel conduit with 3/0 run through
inside of building to a 24x24 pullbox then spliced to two 200 amp panels with msb 30ft away
Thanks for all input please cite code if it is doable
Also the parallel feed at the 400 amp gear is fused mlo

The taps must end at a single overcurrent device.

Can you get the length of tap down to 25 feet and follow 25 foot tap rule in 240.21(2)?
 
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