what would you do?

[cmreschke]

Ok here is a question I've got? Your boss tells you to install something a certain way which you know to be a violation of the codebook be it five 90s in a run between pull points or whatever. You inform boss of potential violation and are told to do it anyways its either A not getting inspected or B the inspector won't see it cause he can't get up the ladder to look. What would you do? Knowingly violate the code so that you can work or put your foot down and worry about the lay offs? Would the installing knowledgeable electrician be in jeopardy of losing their license for an illegal install if forbid something happens and someone got hurt or worse killed due to the negligent install.

Which leads me to another gripe I have like should inspectors have to be physically fit in order to renew their licences to inspect?

What do you think?

 

[Dennis Alwon]

I would try and come up with a viable alternative but in the end the boss is the boss. You can refuse and lose your job or you can do it and be quiet. If it were a dangerous violation I would not do it but this violation is not likely going to hurt anyone except the guys pulling the wire.

 

[WorkSafe]

Could you just stick a jbox up there? Would the boss even notice?

 

[cmreschke]

That was just an example from years ago. It was outdoors on roof and you can only put in the materials that you have. I'm talking things a little more serious. For example...let's say boss gives you a finish to do on resi. Gives you tamper resistant recepts which cost a ton you install them pass all inspections then he says go back and replace the tr with normal so he can reuse the trs. Like I said just an example. Now say some kid gets shocked and dies. For some that scenario could be plausible (shady contractors) i

 

[jmsbrush]

That was just an example from years ago. It was outdoors on roof and you can only put in the materials that you have. I'm talking things a little more serious. For example...let's say boss gives you a finish to do on resi. Gives you tamper resistant recepts which cost a ton you install them pass all inspections then he says go back and replace the tr with normal so he can reuse the trs. Like I said just an example. Now say some kid gets shocked and dies. For some that scenario could be plausible (shady contractors) i

The difference between a TR receptacle and a normal receptacle price is $.53. If he had you do that, he just lost a ton of money in labor.

 

[Dennis Alwon]

That was just an example from years ago. It was outdoors on roof and you can only put in the materials that you have. I'm talking things a little more serious. For example...let's say boss gives you a finish to do on resi. Gives you tamper resistant recepts which cost a ton you install them pass all inspections then he says go back and replace the tr with normal so he can reuse the trs. Like I said just an example. Now say some kid gets shocked and dies. For some that scenario could be plausible (shady contractors) i

I would not be working for said contractor if that was the attitude he had. I would refuse to do that even though no boss in their right mind would do that unless you worked for nothing.

 

[RICK NAPIER]

I have seen this scenario come up more often between the EC and the homeowner or GC. Often the EC will quietly point out the issue before or durring the inspection. I fail it and the EC tells the GC or homeowner "i told you so" but looks like he was going along with it.

 

[kwired]

That was just an example from years ago. It was outdoors on roof and you can only put in the materials that you have. I'm talking things a little more serious. For example...let's say boss gives you a finish to do on resi. Gives you tamper resistant recepts which cost a ton you install them pass all inspections then he says go back and replace the tr with normal so he can reuse the trs. Like I said just an example. Now say some kid gets shocked and dies. For some that scenario could be plausible (shady contractors) i

I have wondered how many AFCI's this happens with, but TR's are not worth the labor to go back and change.

 

[growler]

Would the installing knowledgeable electrician be in jeopardy of losing their license for an illegal install if forbid something happens and someone got hurt or worse killed due to the negligent install.

If it can be proved that you are criminally negligent a lot worse things can happen than losing your licensed if someone is killed.

Your second example of someone removing a device that is ment for safety would be bad because there is no way it could be just an accident and was missed.

We are not all working at 100% code compliance on every job, things do get missed and there is not really an agreement on code all the time so it's possible to have a few honest violations that we are not aware of.

On the other hand if an electrician were to remove a safety device that could be considered a criminal act.

 

[kwired]

If it can be proved that you are criminally negligent a lot worse things can happen than losing your licensed if someone is killed.

Your second example of someone removing a device that is ment for safety would be bad because there is no way it could be just an accident and was missed.

We are not all working at 100% code compliance on every job, things do get missed and there is not really an agreement on code all the time so it's possible to have a few honest violations that we are not aware of.

On the other hand if an electrician were to remove a safety device that could be considered a criminal act.

And to do so under the instruction of an employer or supervisor puts more of the liability on them. You are not necessarily going to get off without any kind of punishment if an incident occurs, but what that punishment may be, is probably up to a judge or jury. If it is just punishment by an AHJ that discovers what has happened it is likely the owner of the company is who is going to be fined, or even prosecuted for criminal acts depending on what the circumstances are, you may be dragged through the process if you are involved.

 

[cowboyjwc]

That was just an example from years ago. It was outdoors on roof and you can only put in the materials that you have. I'm talking things a little more serious. For example...let's say boss gives you a finish to do on resi. Gives you tamper resistant recepts which cost a ton you install them pass all inspections then he says go back and replace the tr with normal so he can reuse the trs. Like I said just an example. Now say some kid gets shocked and dies. For some that scenario could be plausible (shady contractors) i

That's when inspectors pull out the old, "it was installed correctly when I signed it off.":roll:

 

[Twoskinsoneman]

Ok here is a question I've got? Your boss tells you to install something a certain way which you know to be a violation of the codebook be it five 90s in a run between pull points or whatever. You inform boss of potential violation and are told to do it anyways its either A not getting inspected or B the inspector won't see it cause he can't get up the ladder to look. What would you do? Knowingly violate the code so that you can work or put your foot down and worry about the lay offs? Would the installing knowledgeable electrician be in jeopardy of losing their license for an illegal install if forbid something happens and someone got hurt or worse killed due to the negligent install.

This may be a little hypochritical but I would do it unless I thought the violation would be unsafe. 5 90s is not one of those IMHO

Which leads me to another gripe I have like should inspectors have to be physically fit in order to renew their licences to inspect?
What do you think?

If this extends to electricians as well I know many that will not get renewed

 

[__dan]

take the job

every time you go to the supply house for a box of breakers, buy two

every time you go to the supply house for a roll of wire, buy two

every time you cross the founder's bridge, stop in the middle and throw half of everything in the truck into the river

the universe is never in balance. balance is a static point of perfection and the universe is always moving. try to find comfort in the times when the universe is well out of balance but moving towards its balance point

 

[jmellc]

Do as he says as long as life/safety issues are not in play. Sneak in compliance when you can. Fight with him over safety if you must. All the while, be looking for another job. Working under him for too long will eventually wear you down. Either you will fall apart from stress or "cant beat them, join them" will be a temptation. On top of that, if a customer finds bad work & complains, guess who will be blamed? "Well, I told you to save money, I didn't tell you to slop things up and do unsafe work". I've seen & heard that more times than I can count.

 

[GUNNING]

Ditto

Ditto

Don't borrow trouble. The boss is ALWAYS right. To confirm this look at the signature on the check at the end of the week. Impress him with your guile and smarts by giving him alternatives then do what he instructs. If it bothers you get a new boss life is too short.
Liability? None. Its not your company, equipment, or obligations. It is also not your profits or risk.
Your obligation is to your employer. Your employment contract ends when it becomes criminal. Swapping out tr receptacles for non tr receptacles isn't criminal, it is a contract between your boss and his customer. It's a business decision for which your boss profits and pays you to perform. The customer is always right. The big picture might be above your pay scale.

I have worked with green journeyman. They are a pain in the ... bridges. Be aware of whats going on around you. Learn how to work well with others. Take instruction, ask pertinent questions, read up on whats going on, on your own time, observe what is going on, perform accurate and smart looking work improving your speed and technique any chance you can, and keep your opinions to yourself.
Repeat the instruction, and an afirmative confirmation.
That is how I handle my service calls. Repeat what is expected and an expression of a level of difficulty. Like piece of cake or no problem... Acta Non Verba .... action not words.

Labor costs a lot of money and is the biggest asset.

 

[jeremysterling]

Don't borrow trouble. The boss is ALWAYS right. To confirm this look at the signature on the check at the end of the week. Impress him with your guile and smarts by giving him alternatives then do what he instructs. If it bothers you get a new boss life is too short.
Liability? None. Its not your company, equipment, or obligations. It is also not your profits or risk.
Your obligation is to your employer. Your employment contract ends when it becomes criminal. Swapping out tr receptacles for non tr receptacles isn't criminal, it is a contract between your boss and his customer. It's a business decision for which your boss profits and pays you to perform. The customer is always right. The big picture might be above your pay scale.

I have worked with green journeyman. They are a pain in the ... bridges. Be aware of whats going on around you. Learn how to work well with others. Take instruction, ask pertinent questions, read up on whats going on, on your own time, observe what is going on, perform accurate and smart looking work improving your speed and technique any chance you can, and keep your opinions to yourself.
Repeat the instruction, and an afirmative confirmation.
That is how I handle my service calls. Repeat what is expected and an expression of a level of difficulty. Like piece of cake or no problem... Acta Non Verba .... action not words.

Labor costs a lot of money and is the biggest asset.

:thumbsup:Well said!:thumbsup: Thanks for positive insight into the OP's dilemma.

 

[gadfly56]

:thumbsup:Well said!:thumbsup: Thanks for positive insight into the OP's dilemma.

For me, not so much. If you remove something that was approved, and substitue something you have reason to know wouldn't have been approved, that's almost certainly a code violation. That could very well be a criminal act. If the customer paid for "A" and you install "A" and then come back and replace "A" with "B" that costs substantially less, that is very likely fraud, especially if the customer doesn't know about it, and again is a criminal act. You are likely to be in trouble as a conspirator in the commission of the criminal act. It doesn't matter that you were "just following orders".

Saying keep your mouth shut and soldier on now requires the employee to constantly worry about and try to parse when his action goes from a "mere" code violation to a criminal act. If I were that employee, I'd look for another job, sooner rather than later, because if he has a conscience and his boss doesn't, sooner or later he's going to say "no" and the boss is going to say "bye". Better to jump ship than walk the plank.

 

[jmellc]

Saying "I was following orders" is not always a defense any more, especially if something goes to trial and the boss insists that he never told you to do anything illegal or unsafe. See all the reports or job notes he writes, if any. They won't have a word of what he's been telling people to do, nothing that can be nailed on him. I've seen similar things when a boss told people to cut corners here, hurry up there, taking too much time, etc. When the end result didn't look good, he insisted he always told them to do quality work, "not that slop". A guy who pushes people to do substandard work will also lie about it, with a clear conscience. Could probably pass a polygraph, as lying & deceit have been his way of life for so long.

 

[GUNNING]

Disclaimer: not legal advice.

Disclaimer: not legal advice.

The contract is between the contractor and the owner to install and perform.<br><br>This is a contract between participants not a criminal conspiracy.<br><br>The OP asked as an employee do I have any culpability?  He is not an expert. The contractor is the recognized expert by the AHJ in privity with the owner and/or their representative.<br><br>This is a contractual obligation not a crime. The only criminal problems arise out of the ownership of said property and the possible  forfeiture or  control of said property if its not in compliance.  The relief between the owner or there representative and the contractor is found through mediation or civil court with no jeopardy of the loss of liberty. <br><br>For a crime to be committed elements like causality, intent, statutory time limitation would need to be considered and deemed provable with testimony and physical evidence in a criminal court.  This is initiated by a state prosecutor. Involves a criminal court judge and or a jury, adjudicated in a state court and ultimately a determination of guilt or innocence is found as set up by state statute and or constitutional right.    A civil action is determined by individual private parties in front of a judge or mediator interpreting the facts, obligations, and contracts. It is a contractual agreement. <br><br>One determines individual life and liberty, the other interprets and enforces remedies of compliance, and value. <br><br>Code enforcement is based in contract law and extends into the realm of criminal when it endangers life and property.  The rules are to protect property, its value, and the people. It does this by getting codes enforced on property owners to comply with certain standards.  The custodians of the property can comply or forfeit their property. Its more of a property crime than a criminal person on person complaint. Of course there are exceptions.  Unlicensed activity would be a fraudulent avoidance of taxes and licensing requirements.  This is a crime against the state not people and property.<br><br>The big picture, the op isn't liable for the contracts of his employer because he isn't a recognized expert nor a party to the original contract. <img src="images/smilies/jawdrop.gif" border="0" alt="" title="Jaw Drop" smilieid="87" class="inlineimg">Culpability and lack of intent are a valid defense.<br><br><br>

 

[GUNNING]

Disclaimer: not legal advice.

Disclaimer: not legal advice.

The contract is between the contractor and the owner to install and perform.<br><br>This is a contract between participants not a criminal conspiracy.<br><br>The OP asked as an employee do I have any culpability? &nbsp;He is not an expert. The contractor is the&nbsp;recognized&nbsp;expert by the AHJ in privity with the owner and/or their representative.<br><br>This is a contractual obligation not a crime. The only criminal problems arise out of the ownership of said property and the possible &nbsp;forfeiture&nbsp;or &nbsp;control of said property if its not in compliance. &nbsp;The&nbsp;relief between the owner or there representative&nbsp;and the contractor is found through mediation or civil court with no&nbsp;jeopardy&nbsp;of the loss of liberty.&nbsp;<br><br>For a crime to be&nbsp;committed elements like causality, intent, statutory time limitation would need to be considered and deemed provable with&nbsp;testimony&nbsp;and physical evidence in a criminal court. &nbsp;This is initiated by a state&nbsp;prosecutor. Involves a criminal court judge and or a jury, adjudicated&nbsp;in a state court and&nbsp;ultimately a determination of guilt or&nbsp;innocence is found as set up by state statute and or constitutional right.&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;A civil action is determined by individual private parties in front of a judge or mediator interpreting the facts, obligations, and contracts. It is a contractual agreement.&nbsp;<br><br>One determines individual life and liberty, the other&nbsp;interprets&nbsp;and enforces remedies of compliance, and value. <br><br>Code enforcement is based in contract law and extends into the&nbsp;realm&nbsp;of criminal when it endangers life and property. &nbsp;The rules are to protect property, its value, and the people. It does this by getting codes enforced on property owners to comply with certain standards. &nbsp;The custodians of the property can comply or forfeit their property. Its more of a property crime than a criminal person on person complaint. Of course there are exceptions. &nbsp;Unlicensed&nbsp;activity would be a fraudulent avoidance of taxes and&nbsp;licensing requirements. &nbsp;This is a crime against the state not people and property.<br><br>The big picture, the op isn't liable for the contracts of his employer because he isn't a recognized expert nor a party to the original contract.&nbsp;<img src="images/smilies/jawdrop.gif" border="0" alt="" title="Jaw Drop" smilieid="87" class="inlineimg">Culpability and lack of intent are a valid defense.<br><br><br>