what would you do?

[GUNNING]

PUBLISHING YOUR MISTQAKES

PUBLISHING YOUR MISTQAKES

ok I tried to clean this up but was stopped by the administrator. I had to re log in and it added a bunch of crud. again..

Sorry.

Bug in the program.:weeping:

 

[Last Leg]

I agree you should comply with your employers request if there is no danger involved. However, Gunning seems to suggest the Owner of the property knows this is going on; seems to me it's just your bosses greed (as compared to an ethical contractor). You may not be an expert; if you are complicit in a conspiracy and know better, you are guilty. You know this or would not have asked the question. Is a murderer who pulls the trigger less guilty because someone paid him to do it? It's your call - others opinions only help you think about what YOU are and what you want to be.

 

[Strife]

I seriously doubt he took down the TR to save money, the difference in price is not worth the labor to swap them. I have a feeling is more of an agreement with a dead against TR homeowner and your boss probably told him: "look I gotta have TR to pass inspection, I'll take them down and install regular ones after inspection"
However, based on the tone of your voice, I think you have a grudge with your boss. Sorry, just have this nagging feeling.
But to answer your original question, it depends. There's certain things and other things. I sneaked a 5th 90 every now and then because it was impractical, or there was no way in hell I could put a box in between, I sometimes over sized the conduit to make up for it. On the other hand if anyone asked me to install (let's say) PVC conduit without a ground wire I would definitely put my foot down. It's one thing to install a receptacle at 23" and a quarter on a kitchen counter top, a bit different not to install unions, rigid, seal offs, etc in an explosion proof enviroment.

That was just an example from years ago. It was outdoors on roof and you can only put in the materials that you have. I'm talking things a little more serious. For example...let's say boss gives you a finish to do on resi. Gives you tamper resistant recepts which cost a ton you install them pass all inspections then he says go back and replace the tr with normal so he can reuse the trs. Like I said just an example. Now say some kid gets shocked and dies. For some that scenario could be plausible (shady contractors) i

 

[CFL]

It's one thing to install a receptacle at 23" and a quarter on a kitchen counter top, a bit different not to install unions, rigid, seal offs, etc in an explosion proof enviroment.

That's a good point. I always make every effort to be 100% code compliant. If I overlook something or miscalculate, I did not commit a crime. It would be negligence however.

Now, if you you install the receptacle in the kitchen a little too far due to a stud or something, at least you are making an effort to be compliant. There are different degrees of cheating the code, just like there are different degrees of speeding. Most of us are law abiding citizens, but we break the speed limits all the time. However, 5 miles over is not the same as 30 miles over.

Many times I point out violations to coworkers and they'll say something like, "big deal I didn't support my emt, it's above the ceiling". I'll ask them why they even bother using a raceway, a box, or any other code requirement if you're not gonna use them all. Why even own a codebook? Why get a journeyman's license? As a matter of fact, I've come to realize that where I work, the less you know about codes, safety, theory, the better. If you don't know any better, it's like you're never wrong. My boss loves the go with the flow attitude, and rewards it. Some jobs they won't let me near because they know they're doing wrong.

I hope what I said makes sense. By the way, where's the violation with the receptacle on the kitchen counter at 23 1/4"?

 

[GUNNING]

INSPECTORS -- Did I get this right?

INSPECTORS -- Did I get this right?

OK .. so you put something in wrong. Want to share? Who was damaged? The Building Department? How much are the damages and who pays. If the Building department finds out they will followup with red tags maybe fines to the property owner. The licensing board will fine you if you do it without a license. The owner of the properties recourse is to sue the contractor not the building department for damages.

So again, the contractors obligation is to the property owner. The contractor is governed by the AHJ and the Sate boards. The AHJ inspects and reports code compliance. If the journeyman does something wrong the AHJ tells the CONTRACTOR and the owner of the property its not in compliance. They are not your mother. They are not going to fix it for you. Your (the contractors) obligation is to full fill your contract with the owner. The Inspector determines, as a second expert independent party, whether it is a code compliant installation. The contractor is obligated to his insurance company to only install code compliant installations. Because the insurer is going to make whole any damages based on that agreement.

The employee or contractor that makes a mistake is not liable, that is why they call it a mistake. If it is on purpose and the AHJ says its OK as a second opinion then its two learned opinions agreeing. Does not make it code compliant but it is satisfactory to the Insurance company unless they want to pay $500 an hour suits to discuss it for a couple of months. If its not ok to the AHJ then the owner has a period of time to fix it or forfeit the property. The AHJ walks with the asset, the property owner sues the contractor and drives him out of business. Job done, everyone looses.

Employee/employer relationship is a separate relationship. It falls under the contractors umbrella of liability. That is why good help is really important. Its your most expensive asset.
Unless you are a suit then its an opportunity to print money.

 

[__dan]

I did not see the question in terms of the legal issues, who is responsible to pay when faults is found. The question revolves around feeling good about the work and taking pride in producing something of long term value.

The body can produce three stress hormones in any given situation, endorphins, adrenaline, and cortisol. Endorphins produce feelings of euphoria, runner's high. Adrenaline is referred to as a "rush", there are adrenaline junkies. Cortisol is the bad stress hormone. It is produced when the body is telling you to stop and rest so the body can repair injury and avoid repeating the cause of the cortisol response. It's an inflammatory reaction, bad for the body, and long term too much can shorten the lifetime. Endorphins and adrenaline, people cannot get enough of, and will do whatever it takes to maintain and experience the feeling of highs, including working to exhaustion. People want to avoid the feelings of being low.

Hard work when things are going good and professional quality, artwork, is being produced gets the adrenaline flowing and the pro worker feels good. I can tell you feeling good about my work is part of my pay package, compensation. Come along and try to play some game to make me feel bad about my work, give me a cortisol response instead of adrenaline or endorphins, and I will feel personally cheated. I do not work to get paid in cortisol. Pay me with adrenaline, endorphins. Let me work and take pride in what I do and do not get in the way.

I would love to cast this post in terms of entropy instead of stress hormones. Maybe another time.

Point is more work gets done better when the worker has a good stress response, adrenaline, endorphiins, than when a cortisol response is provoked. Coming along and telling a guy to damage "his" productive capacity by intentionally underperforming to code, because there's a nickel to stuff in the pocket, and you are asking for overall lower levels of production, as the worker gets cortisol for his reward.

Throwing bad quality work up on the wall or throwing good quality material into the river should have the same personal response, cortisol. The body tells you something is wrong, to stop, rest, repair the damage. The real problem comes from guys who are incorrigible, completely clueless and faking it, have no remorse. They can cheat code regularly, if they even know any code, produce bad work quickly, throw good product in the dumpster, and the activity causes adrenaline or endorphin rush. Combined with glibness, and something else, those are the tells of the pathological personality. The person who enjoys bringing and causing harm to others. This is very widespread in the population, you cannot walk down the street without someone trying to do you in.