pulling permits
- Thread starter shaw0486
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petersonra
Senior Member
- Location
- Northern illinois
- Occupation
- engineer
Most places you can't just pull the permits and then let someone else do the work.
I think a better explanation of what it is that is actually expected of you might be in order.
gadfly56
Senior Member
- Location
- New Jersey
- Occupation
- Professional Engineer, Fire & Life Safety
In NJ we have the Uniform Construction Code. There are standard forms for permitable work for the entire state. One line on the forms asks for the name of "Responsible person in charge once work has begun." That's going to be you. You should have some kind of subcontractor agreement with the out-of-state company and somewhere in it they should agree to make whatever changes required by you or the AHJ to make the work compliant with the local codes. Also make sure they indemnify you against any fines or fees for reinspection or failure to perform the work properly.
The more I think about it, the less likely I might be to do this. Sounds like more trouble than it's worth.
A huge 'con' is that you are assuming the legal liability for the work being done, whether you do it or not.
Suppose years down the road there's a big issue.... a fire, or someone gets electrocuted. The owner's insurance will likely pay for the damages, but then they'll start looking on recovering that payment. One thing they'll look at is permits, and who they can sue.
Suppose years down the road there's a big issue.... a fire, or someone gets electrocuted. The owner's insurance will likely pay for the damages, but then they'll start looking on recovering that payment. One thing they'll look at is permits, and who they can sue.
kwired
Electron manager
- Location
- NE Nebraska
Around here the only way around pulling the permit for someone else would be if they are subcontracted to work for you. That said the people working on the site still need proper licensing (from this State) or apprentice registration, and there must be proper supervision of apprentices by licensed individuals. As the contractor that pulled the permit, you are still resposible for code corrections if they are needed. And from a legal point of view as mentioned, since your name is on the permit any liability claims are going to involve you.
If I were to do this, it would be done under my terms, I would be involved in how this project is managed, and I would be making enough money to justify the risk I am taking. Otherwise I would just ask the owner why he does not hire someone who is locally licensed or willing to acquire local licensing?
If I were to do this, it would be done under my terms, I would be involved in how this project is managed, and I would be making enough money to justify the risk I am taking. Otherwise I would just ask the owner why he does not hire someone who is locally licensed or willing to acquire local licensing?
renosteinke
Senior Member
- Location
- NE Arkansas
No to be too fussy, but should not this thread be in the 'contracting' forum?
Look, there are established ways to get things done. In our line of work, that means you need to be a licensed electrical contractor to pull a permit- or a 'qualifying employee' for someone else. It's pretty simple.
Yet, there's no end to folks who want to get around this. They are saying "I don't want to hire you, I want my own unqualified folks to do the work, I am not going to give you any control or influence over the job, and I'm too cheap to get my own license ... so I want you to just sign the papers for a few bucks."
Whether this is illegal, or simply unethecal is beyond the point. They are pretty clear as to their contempt for you, and are showing a great lack of respect. They're telling you ahead of time that you're too expensive, that your 'competence' means nothing, and that they think you're stupid enough to play their game.
What part of this arrangement makes sense to you?
Look, there are established ways to get things done. In our line of work, that means you need to be a licensed electrical contractor to pull a permit- or a 'qualifying employee' for someone else. It's pretty simple.
Yet, there's no end to folks who want to get around this. They are saying "I don't want to hire you, I want my own unqualified folks to do the work, I am not going to give you any control or influence over the job, and I'm too cheap to get my own license ... so I want you to just sign the papers for a few bucks."
Whether this is illegal, or simply unethecal is beyond the point. They are pretty clear as to their contempt for you, and are showing a great lack of respect. They're telling you ahead of time that you're too expensive, that your 'competence' means nothing, and that they think you're stupid enough to play their game.
What part of this arrangement makes sense to you?
petersonra
Senior Member
- Location
- Northern illinois
- Occupation
- engineer
It is grossly unfair to refer to these guys as "unqualified". Most of these kind of crews are full of highly skilled tradesmen who have a great deal of experience in getting these jobs done quickly and cost effectively.
Often, they just need some way to do this legally. I can't say I blame the companies involved. Dedicated crews who do the same kind of thing over and over again get very good at it. Having to use local crews with little or no experience at the particular work involved adds a lot of cost and time to the job.
I have these kind of crews come though a couple of times and it can be very impressive.
renosteinke
Senior Member
- Location
- NE Arkansas
I suppose I need to clarify what 'qualified' means.
"Qualified" is a term with specific meaning. I might be the most talented Sparky in my town, but if I lack the necessary licenses for the next town over, I am not qualified over there. Neither Thomas Edison or Nikolai Tesla would be 'qualified,' either as electricians or engineers, today.
If the contractor had a 'qualified' person, he would not be looking to rent a license.
"Qualified" is a term with specific meaning. I might be the most talented Sparky in my town, but if I lack the necessary licenses for the next town over, I am not qualified over there. Neither Thomas Edison or Nikolai Tesla would be 'qualified,' either as electricians or engineers, today.
If the contractor had a 'qualified' person, he would not be looking to rent a license.
- Location
- Massachusetts
But if they cannot legally do the work they are in fact "unqualified".
petersonra
Senior Member
- Location
- Northern illinois
- Occupation
- engineer
Why not say unlicensed?
And that is mostly not about qualifications, so much as limiting the competition.
Bob, that excuse about limiting the competition is usually sour grapes fron guys that are not qualified and can't pass the exam, that shows they understand the electrical, and have the required field experience, qualified is a trained experienced person, the states that have consumer protection laws, are not limiting competition, they are attempting to protect the public from unqualified operators in a business that requires workers that demonstrated they are qualified.
kwired
Electron manager
- Location
- NE Nebraska
The part where I turn the customers proposal down
Most contractors that plan to work in other states, multiple jurisdictions, etc. usually find a way to get qualified to work the places they plan to work, whether it be taking an exam, paying the fee for a jurisdiction that will recriprocate licensing from others, or hiring someone who is qualified to be the manager of the project, or even subcontract the job almost entirely to someone who is qualified. The exception to this may be residential contractors, and not just electrical contractors.
Well said.
in my state you cannot just rent out your license you must be at least an Employee of that company and all the jobs in the field the one for one ratio must be followed .:thumbsup:
renosteinke
Senior Member
- Location
- NE Arkansas
Why didn't I just say 'unlicensed,' rather than 'unqualified?'
Again, perhaps my error in assuming everyone spoke the same 'language.' My first license was from Nevada, and the Contractors' board there used the specific term 'qualifying employee' to describe someone doing electrical work while in the employ of a firm that does not have its' own contracting license. The way that works, if the 'qualifying employee' leaves, the firm can no longer do work.
I was simply carrying over Nevada's use of the terms. Sorry if I confused folks ...
Again, perhaps my error in assuming everyone spoke the same 'language.' My first license was from Nevada, and the Contractors' board there used the specific term 'qualifying employee' to describe someone doing electrical work while in the employ of a firm that does not have its' own contracting license. The way that works, if the 'qualifying employee' leaves, the firm can no longer do work.
I was simply carrying over Nevada's use of the terms. Sorry if I confused folks ...
In MA, you have to be more than an employee of the company, you need to be an officer of the company and your license has to be put in the company name
- Location
- Massachusetts
Why pussyfoot around 'unqualified'?
I can't speak for all areas but here I feel it is more than that, just to qualify to take the test we require 8000 hours over 4 years apprentice time and 600 hours of class time. This is more about training and qualifications than limiting competition, of course that is a side befit that I will not deny.
bradleyelectric
Senior Member
- Location
- forest hill, md
It seemed a lot more like eliminating competition when I called about getting a license to do a project in Mt. Laurel, NJ. The project wasn't to start for months after I contacted them and there was no way for me to get licensed till after the project started, and there were other labor requirements.
hurk27
Senior Member
- Location
- Portage, Indiana NEC: 2008
I would think in most states this would be illegal and could cost you your license not including fines and other things.
Even here where we don't have a state wide license, almost all of our local license requirement include sub contractors which means they also have to have their own license, bonding, and insurance even if they are working under you, here the fine cap is $2500.00 but better bet this is what you will get if you get caught subbing out you license.
I would most definitely check with your licensing board before you ever get into something like this, no matter how much someone offers you its not worth loosing your livelihood in your own back yard.
Even here where we don't have a state wide license, almost all of our local license requirement include sub contractors which means they also have to have their own license, bonding, and insurance even if they are working under you, here the fine cap is $2500.00 but better bet this is what you will get if you get caught subbing out you license.
I would most definitely check with your licensing board before you ever get into something like this, no matter how much someone offers you its not worth loosing your livelihood in your own back yard.
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You say you called about about getting a license, in New Jersey the license is not something you buy, it is issued to anyone who meets the experience requirements and passes the state exam, and pays the required fees for a license and business permit, everyone that works in this state has to comply with the same requirements, so the playing field is level, for everyone, including out of state applicants.
kwired
Electron manager
- Location
- NE Nebraska
Do they reciprocate with other states? Nebraska would allow Certain other states (don't know which ones off the top of my head, it is quite a few) and those same states also allow a Nebraska licensee to get a license without going through the experience and exam process again. You do have to pay the State you are wanting a license in whatever fees are required for the license, and take any required CEU's they require for renewal. The recriprocating list may not be the same for journeyman as it is for contractors, it all has to do with agreements and licensing and exam requirements of the states involved and whether or not they feel that is equivelant to what they do.
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