Hope I'm Not Losing Another One

[Strife]

How the heck can I charge less if the PRICE of the panel is around that much. Go to any supply, any discount, whatever, an AFCi will be around 37-40 dollar. Replace a panel with 15-17 AFCi's and it's 800 dollar (again, just for breakers and panel).
Really? median houses in your areas go for almost a mill? WOW
Of course your job is not to worry about cost. I never heard "public employees" worry about how the private sector will make money to pay their salary. Just raise taxes, we make too much money as it is and profit is a dirty word.
It's this mentality that is strangling the economy.

So how many people died from "arc faults" 5 years ago VS now? We already spent hundreds of billions on arc faults there should be significant change in lat 5 or 10 years. Any data to support how many more lives we saved?

Do all of you guys believe that since we work for a jurisdiction we get a discount on labor and materials. I pay the same thing you do and I get charged the same price that you do. And I would move anywhere where $800 was one percent of my home value since it's only about ten percent of one percent here.

My job isn't to worry about cost, that's your job. If it cost's to much then charge less. Yeah that'll happen, so it's gotta be the governments fault.

When the '94 earthquke hit here 16 people died. Some in accidents and a few heart attacks and several in a building collapes. that was a 6.7 magnitude. A few months later one hit over seas and 1000 people died in a 4.0 earthquake. Codes work.

 

[Strife]

We're not talking about contractors taking short cuts in this thread, nor asking not to have inspections and permit. But I'm tired just as well as the OP of getting a call to install a receptacle and next thing you know it turns into a 5000 dollar job because you need AFCI's so now you need new homeruns, then you needs smoke detectors and so on and so on.
How exactly is me taking shortcuts if I pull a permit to install a receptacle and I install THAT RECEPTACLE per code. Where exactly is the short cut?
What if you got to the doctor needing a 100 dollar tetanus shot and he refuses because you don't have another 500 for some cockamania vaccine that's not proven to work, but is required by the government?

Sounds absurd?
No less absurd than what the government is doing when asking for all or nothing when permitting.
Or how about an auto mechanic not being able to fix your breaks for 100 dollars because your tires are a little bald and you can't afford another set of tires at 500?
Sounds absurd? Again no less than what the building departments around the country are doing.
You'd rather let someone drive without brakes because they can't afford to change their tires.

Very well said. I have mentioned time and again, that even the best contactor would start taking short cuts if he knew that no one was ever going to look at his work.

 

[kwired]

We're not talking about contractors taking short cuts in this thread, nor asking not to have inspections and permit. But I'm tired just as well as the OP of getting a call to install a receptacle and next thing you know it turns into a 5000 dollar job because you need AFCI's so now you need new homeruns, then you needs smoke detectors and so on and so on.
How exactly is me taking shortcuts if I pull a permit to install a receptacle and I install THAT RECEPTACLE per code. Where exactly is the short cut?
What if you got to the doctor needing a 100 dollar tetanus shot and he refuses because you don't have another 500 for some cockamania vaccine that's not proven to work, but is required by the government?

Sounds absurd?
No less absurd than what the government is doing when asking for all or nothing when permitting.
Or how about an auto mechanic not being able to fix your breaks for 100 dollars because your tires are a little bald and you can't afford another set of tires at 500?
Sounds absurd? Again no less than what the building departments around the country are doing.
You'd rather let someone drive without brakes because they can't afford to change their tires.

NEC is one thing, jurisdictions that require installing smoke detectors and bringing other things up to current codes is another. If that is a problem with a local jurisdiction you need to complain to them. Not much the rest of the world is going to do about it. Better yet you need to get enough concerned citizens of the jurisdiction to take the same stance as you and then you may have something done that is desirable to the entire group. That is the good part about our government system. Part of the problem is there are other issues that are hotter topics and have more attention. If you find you are in a minority as far as your wanting something done with the issue then government has done what is was supposed to do. Not everyone is required to be happy with the outcome, they are expected to deal with it in an acceptable manner, and still have the right to continue to try to have the change they want.

 

[RICK NAPIER]

I just reviewed the 5 pages of this progressing argument and would like to add my two cents. The opinion that many things were built without permits are still around doesn't consider how many structures didn't survive. Have you ever seen how fast a balloon constructed home burns. So many code requirements are from death and injuries not to mention property loss.

I am currently an inspector but I use to be a contractor in a three generation family business. I always appreciated a good inspector because I could not compete with electricians willing to sacrvice safety to reduce cost and they were often a good source of information in an age prior to the internet.

The NEC does not adequately address existing conditions. In NJ we have a 212 page document known as they Rehab code that only deals with existing conditions. It is a bit complicated but is a good effort to address such problems.

 

[cowboyjwc]

John, what we need to do is get rid of all the codes and laws, I want my grand children to experience living in a sub standard housing, and go back in time and learn to live like a cave man, the first codes to go should be the plumbing codes, I want my grand children to experience all conditions that open duct water systems can provide, and the next codes to go, should be the fire codes, so they will learn to stay in the cave.

Good code history link http://www.buyerschoiceinspections.com/history-of-building-codes

Well of course you do. You could save a lot of trouble and just move to India or somewhere like that, they don't have building codes, oh wait they do, just no one follows them, but heck it seems like it's worked ok.

 

[cowboyjwc]

We're not talking about contractors taking short cuts in this thread, nor asking not to have inspections and permit. But I'm tired just as well as the OP of getting a call to install a receptacle and next thing you know it turns into a 5000 dollar job because you need AFCI's so now you need new homeruns, then you needs smoke detectors and so on and so on.
How exactly is me taking shortcuts if I pull a permit to install a receptacle and I install THAT RECEPTACLE per code. Where exactly is the short cut?
What if you got to the doctor needing a 100 dollar tetanus shot and he refuses because you don't have another 500 for some cockamania vaccine that's not proven to work, but is required by the government?

Sounds absurd?
No less absurd than what the government is doing when asking for all or nothing when permitting.
Or how about an auto mechanic not being able to fix your breaks for 100 dollars because your tires are a little bald and you can't afford another set of tires at 500?
Sounds absurd? Again no less than what the building departments around the country are doing.
You'd rather let someone drive without brakes because they can't afford to change their tires.

Read again what I said, I said that contractors would strat taking short cuts as soon as they knew that no one was ever going to look over their shoulder. I didn't say you were taking short cuts by doing what the "law" requires.

 

[cowboyjwc]

Codes work ... or do they?

We've been putting up buildings a lot longer than there have been codes; some of these early structures are still in use. Indeed, even today our greatest structures go up without the least bit of input from 'code enforcement' or building departments. Doubt me? Fair enough ... I want to see the building permit issued to the Golden Gate bridge ... or the Hoover Dam .... Even today, the smallest jurisdiction continues to assert that they are their own AHJ, exempt from the rules all us need follow.

Instead, we wind up with 'unintended consequences' and simple corruption. Licensing laws are used to restrict competition, and codes are used to protect commercial interests. This is not just rhetoric; there are plenty of historical and legal records on this point. Likewise, government tends to grow, and insert itself into the most minute details.

Is there a 'right' answer? I believe that there is. In founding this bold experiement of a nation, our founders deliberately chose to hamstring government. Simply saying 'it's for your own good' wasn't enough; their entire goal was to regulate the government ... rather than the people. "Codes work" was, to them, as a ham sandwich is to kosher rules.

If not government, then what? Amazingly enough, there are also plenty of instances of private enterprise and free markets ensuring that 'codes work.' Perhaps the best description can be found in "Life on the Mississippi," where Mark Twain describes how the insurance companies changed the way the steamboat pilots operated. This was the free market at work; no law required insurance.

Insert government into things, and now you have given the scofflaw an advantage. Ever see an Army base or a housing project? That's what governemnt gives you.

Codes work? Tell that to the California homeowners whose local codes force them to cover their homes with oil-soaked wood shakes. Tell it to the Tahoe homeowner who was facing charges for simply raking up the loose pine needles around his house ... until a wildfire burned down every house on the street ... except his! "Thank you, TRPA, for such a nice fire" read the bumper stickers.

Government has to recognize that they are part of the problem- and that expanding their role only makes it worse.

If you think for one minute that the Golden Gate Bridge or The Hoover Dam were built without any over seeing of the contractors then you live in a fantasy world. Back in those days, and something we are going back to, the engineer of the projec was the person who watched over it. And many of them were held responsible for their failures (Mulhullond for the St. Fransis dam collapse, Moisseiff, Tacomia Narrows Bridge collapse)(by the way Moisseiff was also the engineer for the Golden Gate Bridge) Both of these gentlemen took some short cuts and paid the price.

by the way you haven't been able to use shake as a roofing material for years, why because they burn to well so they were banned.

 

[kwired]

Codes work ... or do they?

We've been putting up buildings a lot longer than there have been codes; some of these early structures are still in use. Indeed, even today our greatest structures go up without the least bit of input from 'code enforcement' or building departments. Doubt me? Fair enough ... I want to see the building permit issued to the Golden Gate bridge ... or the Hoover Dam .... Even today, the smallest jurisdiction continues to assert that they are their own AHJ, exempt from the rules all us need follow.

Instead, we wind up with 'unintended consequences' and simple corruption. Licensing laws are used to restrict competition, and codes are used to protect commercial interests. This is not just rhetoric; there are plenty of historical and legal records on this point. Likewise, government tends to grow, and insert itself into the most minute details.

Is there a 'right' answer? I believe that there is. In founding this bold experiement of a nation, our founders deliberately chose to hamstring government. Simply saying 'it's for your own good' wasn't enough; their entire goal was to regulate the government ... rather than the people. "Codes work" was, to them, as a ham sandwich is to kosher rules.

If not government, then what? Amazingly enough, there are also plenty of instances of private enterprise and free markets ensuring that 'codes work.' Perhaps the best description can be found in "Life on the Mississippi," where Mark Twain describes how the insurance companies changed the way the steamboat pilots operated. This was the free market at work; no law required insurance.

Insert government into things, and now you have given the scofflaw an advantage. Ever see an Army base or a housing project? That's what governemnt gives you.

Codes work? Tell that to the California homeowners whose local codes force them to cover their homes with oil-soaked wood shakes. Tell it to the Tahoe homeowner who was facing charges for simply raking up the loose pine needles around his house ... until a wildfire burned down every house on the street ... except his! "Thank you, TRPA, for such a nice fire" read the bumper stickers.

Government has to recognize that they are part of the problem- and that expanding their role only makes it worse.

Man was happy when he built the first grass hut. It was not as cold and clammy as the cave was. Then the building inspector came along and asked if he had a permit, and proper plans, if the zoning was approved and why he did not call for rough in inspections. Made him tear the whole thing apart so he could see what may have been covered up. At this point the mans lender was not willing to lend him the extra money to go through this process and he ended up forclosing and moving back to the cave. Before he could move back to the cave though he had to install AFCI's, smoke detectors, the tree he used to climb to get to the entrance of the cave had to be ADA compliant, so a ramp or chair lift had to be installed, and he had to put in an egress window in every sleeping cavern. Health and human services came along and wanted him to make several changes otherwise they were going to take his children from him. The guy was overwhelmed with it all and eventually killed himself. His wife took his life insurance and built a house made of wood - with proper zoning, permits and inspections. She eventually ended up marrying the building inspector.

 

[satcom]

I just reviewed the 5 pages of this progressing argument and would like to add my two cents. The opinion that many things were built without permits are still around doesn't consider how many structures didn't survive. Have you ever seen how fast a balloon constructed home burns. So many code requirements are from death and injuries not to mention property loss.

I am currently an inspector but I use to be a contractor in a three generation family business. I always appreciated a good inspector because I could not compete with electricians willing to sacrvice safety to reduce cost and they were often a good source of information in an age prior to the internet.

The NEC does not adequately address existing conditions. In NJ we have a 212 page document known as they Rehab code that only deals with existing conditions. It is a bit complicated but is a good effort to address such problems.

Rick, good info, the New Jersey Rehab Code is a good example of how government is trying to protect private owners from excess costs when doing work in older structures.

The government should not be the target of your concerns with the building codes, the target should be the insurance industry and their underwriting requirements.
And keep in mind these insurance companies are the same group that makes it possible to obtain affordable coverages for our homes and businesses, they are the ones that require the practice of following established codes and standards, not the government, the AJH and every city. and town, in this country trys to operate inspection services, to assure our cities and towns maintain an underwriting rating, to keep our insurance costs down, cities that do not run inspections, all have much higher insurance costs, without permits and inspections , our insurance costs woukd be out of control.
And don't forget, every city is rated, and updated, they usually review each city to record changes in fire protection, number and distances, of fire houses, fire fighting man power, type and number of engines.

Get off the government kick, and learn about how things really work!

I am just a Nasty Old Fart

I would just like everyone to take a look at the real issues of buildings and permits, not what they think, but what is real.

Thank you

 

[cowboyjwc]

Rick, good info, the New Jersey Rehab Code is a good example of how government is trying to protect private owners from excess costs when doing work in older structures.

The government should not be the target of your concerns with the building codes, the target should be the insurance industry and their underwriting requirements.
And keep in mind these insurance companies are the same group that makes it possible to obtain affordable coverages for our homes and businesses, they are the ones that require the practice of following established codes and standards, not the government, the AJH and every city. and town, in this country trys to operate inspection services, to assure our cities and towns maintain an underwriting rating, to keep our insurance costs down, cities that do not run inspections, all have much higher insurance costs, without permits and inspections , our insurance costs woukd be out of control.
And don't forget, every city is rated, and updated, they usually review each city to record changes in fire protection, number and distances, of fire houses, fire fighting man power, type and number of engines.

Get off the government kick, and learn about how things really work!

I am just a Nasty Old Fart

I would just like everyone to take a look at the real issues of buildings and permits, not what they think, but what is real.

Thank you

No, Thank you.:happyyes: That's the point I tried to get across earlier.

 

[Fulthrotl]

Get off the government kick, and learn about how things really work!

I am just a Nasty Old Fart

I would just like everyone to take a look at the real issues of buildings and permits, not what they think, but what is real.

Thank you

well, UL stands for underwriters laboratories.
as in insurance underwriters.

it would be BGL if big government ran it.

not everything is covered by UL or NEC, etc.

some public utilities have their own codes. some don't.

see? (note: these are different public utilities, each with their own way of doing things)

 

[220/221]

SOME Codes work.

Fixed it ^

 

[highvolts582]

This is what im told in my neck of the woods.

This is what im told in my neck of the woods.

Here in jersey you only need afci breakers if you add square footage to the house. So they are not required to be used in new basement wiring/rewiring a whole house. I thought you could go to the code the house was built with. after all your only replacing everything. get a permit and a contract.

after reading prior posts I thought the rehab subcode was universal. I have found something great about jersey. I can die now.

 

[kwired]

Here in jersey you only need afci breakers if you add square footage to the house. So they are not required to be used in new basement wiring/rewiring a whole house. I thought you could go to the code the house was built with. after all your only replacing everything. get a permit and a contract.

after reading prior posts I thought the rehab subcode was universal. I have found something great about jersey. I can die now.

Is that the general rule or does it just apply to certain things - like AFCI.

I find it very hard to believe you can go into a home built in 1930's and are allowed to install new wiring to 1930's standards. I will believe that you could maintain the existing 1930's wiring to its original standards. And that is just according to electrical codes. Other codes may make you replace items that are not up to some of more recent standards, like lampholders and fuseholders or safety switches with exposed live components.

 

[kwired]

Do you happen to have photos of the underground work the utility in the second photo does?

I've seen either that photo or one very similar before. Kind of have to wonder if it is a real photo, but at same time in some countries would not really be too suprising. Possibly most of the mess is illegal taps from people stealing power?

well, UL stands for underwriters laboratories.
as in insurance underwriters.

it would be BGL if big government ran it.

not everything is covered by UL or NEC, etc.

some public utilities have their own codes. some don't.

see? (note: these are different public utilities, each with their own way of doing things)

 

[RICK NAPIER]

You mean like this?

 

[K8MHZ]

I simply cannot accept that the 1963 new house I was raised in was a deathtrap.

The house we lived in in 1960 had no receptacle serving a kitchen countertop. There was no code requiring it at the time. So my mother had to use an extension cord plugged into a wall receptacle to make coffee. My sister was three months old and in a walker when she grabbed the extension cord and pulled the pot of boiling hot coffee on herself.

That nearly killed her. She suffered third degree burns over 40 percent of her body and spent months in the hospital as they grafted skin from one part of her body to the other to keep her alive. She turned 50 last year. She still has severe scars from her waist down that can't be fixed. But at least she made it.

So, I have a bit of a different view on codes and why they are made and why they should be followed.

 

[satcom]

The house we lived in in 1960 had no receptacle serving a kitchen countertop. There was no code requiring it at the time. So my mother had to use an extension cord plugged into a wall receptacle to make coffee. My sister was three months old and in a walker when she grabbed the extension cord and pulled the pot of boiling hot coffee on herself.

That nearly killed her. She suffered third degree burns over 40 percent of her body and spent months in the hospital as they grafted skin from one part of her body to the other to keep her alive. She turned 50 last year. She still has severe scars from her waist down that can't be fixed. But at least she made it.

So, I have a bit of a different view on codes and why they are made and why they should be followed.

Yes, the 60's homes that were not updated, still present problems, with the need to run extension cords, that increases the chance of a fire, or falls from tripping, these accidents happen every day, they just don't make the headline news.

 

[cowboyjwc]

The house we lived in in 1960 had no receptacle serving a kitchen countertop. There was no code requiring it at the time. So my mother had to use an extension cord plugged into a wall receptacle to make coffee. My sister was three months old and in a walker when she grabbed the extension cord and pulled the pot of boiling hot coffee on herself.

That nearly killed her. She suffered third degree burns over 40 percent of her body and spent months in the hospital as they grafted skin from one part of her body to the other to keep her alive. She turned 50 last year. She still has severe scars from her waist down that can't be fixed. But at least she made it.

So, I have a bit of a different view on codes and why they are made and why they should be followed.

Personal stories make the best points. Suddenly the money doesn't seem so important. Thanks for sharing.

 

[renosteinke]

My heart bleeds - but when we start making decisions based upon emotions, all is lost.

There is not now, nor will there ever be, anything that cannot be somehow made better. There are also the unintended consequences ... such as when we add a wheelchair ramp to help one, while creating a trip / fall hazard for the blind guy.

I'll bet that 1960 house had a phone jack. Amazing, isn't it ... no one needed a code to tell them that they wanted a phone jack. Ditto for storm windows and door locks.

Then again, kids rode bikes witout helmets, schools had marksmanship competitions, and cars lacked seat belts. It's rather amazing that anyone survived childhood at all!

These days, folks brag about living in 'gated communities,' where they are told what color to paint their house, what their yard must look like, and even what mailbox to hang. Maybe there are folks who feel a need to have their every action determined by a rulebook, but I'm not one of them.

The issue is not "what" is required, but rather one of "who" makes the decision. There are plenty of workers' paradises and religious theocracies where everything is determined by the AHJ ... but such is directly contrary to the model upon which we based our society. I am stumped by those whose ideal imitates less successful models ... it's rather like a baseball team aspiring for second place. (Then again, there are the Chicago Cubs!)