- Location
- Massachusetts
A lot of truth there.
Generator installation questions
- Thread starter goldstar
- Start date
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A lot of truth there.
- Location
- Massachusetts
Please look at the code section I have posted below, notice it does not list a transfer switch.
That being the case the only way to install a 'whole house' transfer switch is to use a service rated transfer switch, have the main bonding jumper in the transfer switch and everything down stream from the transfer switch is now 'load side equipment' and must have the grounded and grounding conductors separated.
Any existing GECs must also me moved into this new service disconnect / transfer switch.
That being the case the only way to install a 'whole house' transfer switch is to use a service rated transfer switch, have the main bonding jumper in the transfer switch and everything down stream from the transfer switch is now 'load side equipment' and must have the grounded and grounding conductors separated.
Any existing GECs must also me moved into this new service disconnect / transfer switch.
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goldstar
Senior Member
- Location
- New Jersey
- Occupation
- Electrical Contractor
Listen Guys, it was never my intention to start a big controversy over this. I merely asked a question, gave some of my own opinions and got some real credible and solid responses from many of you, for which I've expressed my sincere appreciation. Having said that, I've also received some whacked out responses (not necessarily ones posted here) from other electricians and I'm trying to get myself to a point where I'm goiing to be competitive with others who are installing these units in my area. If I accept your answers as being gospel and go ahead and attempt to convince people that they have to upgrade their electric services to 200 amps before I can install these units I may come out on the short end if other electricians are not doing the same thing and passing inspection. I'm also not waiting for that one forum contributor that says "sure, you can go ahead and install this the way you want to and it's code compliant".
I believe that many of the answers that have been posted here have a great deal of merit and have code sections to back them up. I'd like to agree with you all. My intention is not only to have a code compliant installation but a safe one. That said, if my local inspector tells me that I could string triplex from tree to tree, run it through the transfer switch and be code compliant because that's what others are doing, then that's what I'm doing (I hope those of you with a sense of humor can appreciate my sarcasm here). Contrary to popular belief I'm out here trying to make a living doing this. I'm trying not to make a costly mistake up front.
If those involved in this thread are interested in what my local inspector's opinion is (when I find out) I would be happy to post it here. If not, please ask the moderatrors to shut down this thread or send me a PM and I'll reply
I believe that many of the answers that have been posted here have a great deal of merit and have code sections to back them up. I'd like to agree with you all. My intention is not only to have a code compliant installation but a safe one. That said, if my local inspector tells me that I could string triplex from tree to tree, run it through the transfer switch and be code compliant because that's what others are doing, then that's what I'm doing (I hope those of you with a sense of humor can appreciate my sarcasm here). Contrary to popular belief I'm out here trying to make a living doing this. I'm trying not to make a costly mistake up front.
If those involved in this thread are interested in what my local inspector's opinion is (when I find out) I would be happy to post it here. If not, please ask the moderatrors to shut down this thread or send me a PM and I'll reply
kwired
Electron manager
- Location
- NE Nebraska
- Occupation
- EC
If you want to see safe code compliant installations there is no reason you can't question inspectors if you think they are allowing things that are not compliant. How else are they going to learn? I think enough people have made a similar enough assessment of your installation and recommended similar enough changes that you can't just disregard it. I myself have very little disagreement with what others have said here.
We not only want to know what your local inspectors opinion is, but welcome him/her to participate in this discussion. If they are allowing improper installations it may open their mind to change. That is what we are all about here.
ceb58
Senior Member
- Location
- Raeford, NC
And I wholeheartedly agree with wanting to know. I have been in heated discussions with other electrical contractors from NJ who swear the inspectors do not required a disconnect for the generator feeders as required by 225.31. I also agree with you wanting to know what they expect for the install so you can be on the same page with other contractors.
- Location
- Tennessee NEC:2017
- Occupation
- Semi-Retired Electrician
I'm not trying to stir the pot, but you keep mentioning upgrading the service, which would be compliant. But I think your easiest and cheapest option would be to just install a 150A disconnect, bond the ground & neutral there and make the transfer switch and anything else downstream a sub panel. No inspector would be correct in not allowing this as a solution to your problem. You could do this tomorrow and be done with it.
goldstar
Senior Member
- Location
- New Jersey
- Occupation
- Electrical Contractor
OK. Here's what I have so far. I've spoken to several inspectors who have differing opinions. But, I spoke to my local inspector several times yesterday who agrees with the fact that the existing main breaker panel now becomes the sub-panel, the grounds have to be separated from neutrals and the main grounding has to be terminated at the transfer switch. So far - so good. His initial response as to how to treat the 200 amp disconnect (breaker) was that it was OK to feed the to line side of the breaker with 2/0 (150 amp) but the load side would have to be 4/0 SER cable to the existing 150A main breaker panel. I indicated that this didn't make sense so after contacting the State he called me back and indicated that I would have to upgrade the entire service to 200 amps in accordance with 230.90. That meant that I would also have to change the water main bonding to #4 in accordance with 250.66.
Not wanting to go through all that and wanting to do the right thing I contacted the generator company, cancelled the two orders that I had in process and re-ordered gen- sets with 150 amp disconnects. It cost me $200 per gen-set (because they are not available and packaged as 150 amp) but I won't have to upgrade those services. I will have to deal with the one I've already had delivered. As the saying goes "You have to pay for your education".
I know many of you think I'm crazy and just looking for a BETTER answer but I still think this interpretation is incorrect. My reasoning is that if this 200 amp SERVICE RATED transfer (and service disconnect) switch were just that - a molded case switch and not a breaker would this be treated differently ? The fact that this generator company chose to use an over-current device in lieu of a switch doesn't change the fact that this service was designed and build for 150 amps. This company also packages 10KW-20KW units with 200 amp xfer switches. Can we really believe that a 10KW unit will handle the entire connected load on a 200 amp service ? What am I protecting with this 200A switch ? The meter ? The SER cable going into the house ?
Anyway, Bob (iwire) in looking at 230.82(7) Control circuits for power-operable service disconnecting means, if suitable over-current protection and disconnecting means are provided. I believe this disconnect applies and is suitable.
Not wanting to go through all that and wanting to do the right thing I contacted the generator company, cancelled the two orders that I had in process and re-ordered gen- sets with 150 amp disconnects. It cost me $200 per gen-set (because they are not available and packaged as 150 amp) but I won't have to upgrade those services. I will have to deal with the one I've already had delivered. As the saying goes "You have to pay for your education".
I know many of you think I'm crazy and just looking for a BETTER answer but I still think this interpretation is incorrect. My reasoning is that if this 200 amp SERVICE RATED transfer (and service disconnect) switch were just that - a molded case switch and not a breaker would this be treated differently ? The fact that this generator company chose to use an over-current device in lieu of a switch doesn't change the fact that this service was designed and build for 150 amps. This company also packages 10KW-20KW units with 200 amp xfer switches. Can we really believe that a 10KW unit will handle the entire connected load on a 200 amp service ? What am I protecting with this 200A switch ? The meter ? The SER cable going into the house ?
Anyway, Bob (iwire) in looking at 230.82(7) Control circuits for power-operable service disconnecting means, if suitable over-current protection and disconnecting means are provided. I believe this disconnect applies and is suitable.
kwired
Electron manager
- Location
- NE Nebraska
- Occupation
- EC
The fact that it is service rated means it can be used as the service disconnect, not necessarily that it can be used ahead of the service disconnect. IOW when it is installed on service conductors it is the service disconnect. It is no different than coming off the meter, hitting a single switch or breaker as a service disconnect then supplying a feeder, the transfer switch just happens to be a double throw switch instead of a single throw switch. Otherwise it is just a switch. If it is not service rated then you can not land service conductors on it.
goldstar
Senior Member
- Location
- New Jersey
- Occupation
- Electrical Contractor
Sorry kwired, but I'm not following what you're inferring here. In your opinion should this SERVICE RATED disconnect/transfer switch be considered just a switch or should it be considered an over-current device and the NEW main circuit breaker ?
ceb58
Senior Member
- Location
- Raeford, NC
We are not supposed to believe a 10 Kw will handle a 200 amp service. 702.5 (B)(2) has taken care of that. I don't see how you come to the 230.82 (7) conclusion. The disconnect in the transfer switch is not power operated and the transfer contactor is not a disconnect.??????
kwired
Electron manager
- Location
- NE Nebraska
- Occupation
- EC
Have you ever seen a service rated transfer switch that did not have overcurrent protection within the unit? It is the service disconnect when connected to service conductors. If it does not have overcurrent device in it, it likely is not service rated.
- Location
- Massachusetts
Strangely it is not a requirement that it have OCP in it to be service rated.:blink:
goldstar
Senior Member
- Location
- New Jersey
- Occupation
- Electrical Contractor
The point I'm trying to make is that someone, somewhere along the line at Generac or Briggs & Stratton or Kohler did some research into pairing up 200 amp whole house transfer switches with 10KW-20KW generators. As far as production goes, with the exception of the breaker, the transfer switch is manufactured the same way, with the same material and to the same specs irrespective of whether it gets shipped out with a 150 or 200 amp breaker in it. All the production line person has to do is grab a 150 amp breaker instead of a 200 amp one. There's no additional work involved. I can't be the only electrical contractor in the country who is installing 200 amp rated transfer switches in 150 amp services. This company is pushing these gen-sets out the door by the thousands. Am I the only person who's committed this mortal sin ?
Sorry, after reading Bob's post over about 10 times I see how I mis-interpreted this. Sorry Bob, no need to respond to my post. Ceb's already wire brushed me enough
Worlds Gr8est Electrician
Member
I just finished a Generac with a service rated ATS install today On a 200 amp service.
everything is bonded at the ATS
Changed SEU feeder to panel with conduit with 3/0 copper 2 hots a neutral and ground
Ran 2/0 from meter to ATS
Ran #3 AWG to generator. With 2 hots a neutral and a ground
Removed bonding jumper from the neutral bar in generator.
Removed bonding jumper in Panel.
Getting inspected tomorrow we will see what the inspector thinks.
everything is bonded at the ATS
Changed SEU feeder to panel with conduit with 3/0 copper 2 hots a neutral and ground
Ran 2/0 from meter to ATS
Ran #3 AWG to generator. With 2 hots a neutral and a ground
Removed bonding jumper from the neutral bar in generator.
Removed bonding jumper in Panel.
Getting inspected tomorrow we will see what the inspector thinks.
ceb58
Senior Member
- Location
- Raeford, NC
Sorry Bob, no need to respond to my post. Ceb's already wire brushed me enough
All with love:thumbsup:
goldstar
Senior Member
- Location
- New Jersey
- Occupation
- Electrical Contractor
I'd like to tell you all what I did on Friday but let me begin by apologizing to all those who I drove crazy with my comments, especially Ceb58 who posted the first and most accurate answer to my questions. I thought I posed a good argument though but apparently not good enough.
I called Generac directly to ask whether I could use their 200 amp xfer switch on a 150 amp service. First of all, for those of you who might ever want to call Generac directly, PACK A LUNCH. It's a good thing I had some free time in the office and didn't use my cell phone because between the phone transfers and two employees answering questions and being tied up with 400 or so inquisitive customers I waited almost 40 minutes to get to a live person. When I asked this young lady whether I could use their 200 amp xfer switch on a 150 amp service I was first put on hold and after 5 minutes told that I had to use a 150 amp xfer switch with a 150 amp service. I then asked why they didn't package units for use with 150 amp xfer switches. Dead silence.................... and then she said "Is there anything else I can do for you sir ?"
In my haste and aggravation I had forgotten what type of company Generac was. It's a SALES company. They're interested in SALES and SALES only. They couldn't care less whether someone like myself or a mere homeowner purchases a 100 amp disconnect for a 400 amp service. They push products out the door and will not take them back once they've left the dock. I've met with customers who have purchased these units on line, have had them shipped to their houses and then are trying to contract with plumbers and electricians to do the install. Needless to say, they go into shock when they get the prices, especially when they find out they'll have to upgrade their services.
Thanks again for all your comments. Can't wait til the next argument.:thumbsup:
Anyone have the recipe for crow ?
I called Generac directly to ask whether I could use their 200 amp xfer switch on a 150 amp service. First of all, for those of you who might ever want to call Generac directly, PACK A LUNCH. It's a good thing I had some free time in the office and didn't use my cell phone because between the phone transfers and two employees answering questions and being tied up with 400 or so inquisitive customers I waited almost 40 minutes to get to a live person. When I asked this young lady whether I could use their 200 amp xfer switch on a 150 amp service I was first put on hold and after 5 minutes told that I had to use a 150 amp xfer switch with a 150 amp service. I then asked why they didn't package units for use with 150 amp xfer switches. Dead silence.................... and then she said "Is there anything else I can do for you sir ?"
In my haste and aggravation I had forgotten what type of company Generac was. It's a SALES company. They're interested in SALES and SALES only. They couldn't care less whether someone like myself or a mere homeowner purchases a 100 amp disconnect for a 400 amp service. They push products out the door and will not take them back once they've left the dock. I've met with customers who have purchased these units on line, have had them shipped to their houses and then are trying to contract with plumbers and electricians to do the install. Needless to say, they go into shock when they get the prices, especially when they find out they'll have to upgrade their services.
Thanks again for all your comments. Can't wait til the next argument.:thumbsup:
Anyone have the recipe for crow ?
- Location
- Massachusetts
M4gery
Senior Member
FWIW, 200A and even 100A are common service sizes around here. I've never installed or even seen a 150A service. Small houses with all gas appliances will many times get a 100A service, if a larger service is required we go up to 200A. I've been told that the material for a 150A service is more expensive than a 200A service, but I never priced it out myself.
goldstar
Senior Member
- Location
- New Jersey
- Occupation
- Electrical Contractor
Understood. I live in a lake community. Way back when, people built their own houses or did the electrical install to save a few $$. I can't begin to tell you what I run into. Many homes in my area have 150 services, including my own. In many cases people need the additional lighting or receptacle branch circuits but not necessarily the increase in available amperage. They either don't intend to or are not capable of having a pool or spa installed. In addition, installing a full 40 ckt.-200 amp service panel may not fit in the area intended. As fas as $$ goes, if you're using SEU or PVC you'll save a few $$ there and the breaker panel will be a few $$ less and using #6 ground wire instead of # 4 saves a few $$. All in all probably $100.00 or less in savings. The amount of work is the same.
kwired
Electron manager
- Location
- NE Nebraska
- Occupation
- EC
I suppose it depends on where you buy. Big box stores probably buy 100 amp and 200 amp panels in larger quantities and may be able to acquire them for less. From my main supplier a 30 circuit 150 amp main breaker panel is exact same cost as 30 circuit 200 amp main breaker panel.
There are 20 circuit 200 amp panels made. Some of them are in same enclosure as a 30 circuit panel and cost only slightly less or even the same.
Cost of an item does not always directly correlate to what it is made of - you have to consider how many of a particular unit sells and what kind of change in production is needed to make the less popular selling unit.
Good example is 4 foot and 8 foot fluorescent lamps. They are generally much less cost than 3 foot, 5 foot, 6 foot and 7 foot lamps that are otherwise nearly identical. Why? There are millions more produced in 4 and 8 foot models.
Generac probably sells many more 100 or 200 amp transfer switches than 150 amp.
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