Generator installation questions

[Fulthrotl]

=goldstar;1351246
Anyone have the recipe for crow ?

here we normally char the crow with scorching emails, and it is served that way.
sometimes with a side dish of beaten dead horse, served cold.

i prefer mine with tabasco to kill the flavor.

i have four gensets pending..... i've not done residential ones in a long time,
so thank you for the continuing education units i've received here. it seems
the whole country is going nuts with wanting one, particularly in affluent areas.
all mine are in newport beach, and newport coast.

iwire's little lockout plate might be the thing for two of them, they want something
minimal, but one of them want's a whole house generator that will do everything but
the AC, and want's the generator in a well on the roof..... as far as disabling the
AC, is it legal to just use an auxiliary switch on the transfer switch to disable the
AC unit contactor when the switch is in the generator position?

and the city in question has required panel schedules to have a seal and a wet ink
signature on them, from the engineer of record on the prints, inside the panel door....

so..... i'm gonna read some of the references here, and wander down to the city
and speak with the chief electrical inspector, and make some notes, *before* quoting......

right now, they are seeing how much natural gas they can get up to the roof easily.....
and the weight, and mechanical isolation for vibration, etc.
so i haven't got the call to bid it yet.... it's in the "feasibility" stage at this point.

seeing as you guys are primed on sources of all this..... anyone got any recommendations
of vendors for generators and ATS switches that you have good experience with?

thanks....

 

[M4gery]

as far as disabling the
AC, is it legal to just use an auxiliary switch on the transfer switch to disable the
AC unit contactor when the switch is in the generator position?

I just use a relay to cut the yellow wire going to the thermostat- done.

 

[Fulthrotl]

I just use a relay to cut the yellow wire going to the thermostat- done.

thanks. that was my solution.... pick up one leg of the generator, so when it's running, it opens a relay
disabling the thermostat.....

 

[ceb58]

i have four gensets pending..... i've not done residential ones in a long time,
so thank you for the continuing education units i've received here. it seems
the whole country is going nuts with wanting one, particularly in affluent areas.
all mine are in newport beach, and newport coast.

iwire's little lockout plate might be the thing for two of them, they want something
minimal, but one of them want's a whole house generator that will do everything but
the AC, and want's the generator in a well on the roof..... as far as disabling the
AC, is it legal to just use an auxiliary switch on the transfer switch to disable the
AC unit contactor when the switch is in the generator position?

and the city in question has required panel schedules to have a seal and a wet ink
signature on them, from the engineer of record on the prints, inside the panel door....

so..... i'm gonna read some of the references here, and wander down to the city
and speak with the chief electrical inspector, and make some notes, *before* quoting......

right now, they are seeing how much natural gas they can get up to the roof easily.....
and the weight, and mechanical isolation for vibration, etc.
so i haven't got the call to bid it yet.... it's in the "feasibility" stage at this point.

seeing as you guys are primed on sources of all this..... anyone got any recommendations
of vendors for generators and ATS switches that you have good experience with?

thanks....

Going to the inspector first is the smart thing to do. Especially with some one wanting one on the roof. If you go with a Generac there instructions will say it can be installed with in 18". This is something to really check into. Some states would not recognize this because Generac's testing wasn't done by a recognized testing lab and they wouldn't publish the results.
I have had good results from Ziller Electric for buying the generators. Another option is I would let the customer buy the gen. set. Reason being is if you buy and resell it to them and something happens you will be the first they call. If you think Goldstar had problems talking to someone try calling for tech. support. When they ask you for your service number and you tell them you are not a "cert. tech." they will hang up on you. Let the customer deal with the warranty and trying to find a Tech. to work on it.

 

[bradleyelectric]

thanks. that was my solution.... pick up one leg of the generator, so when it's running, it opens a relay
disabling the thermostat.....

The "load shedding technology" transfer switches have this integrated in the switch. Generacs switches and the generac switches that are just rebadged have contacts that are labeled AC 1 and AC 2 for up to 2 AC units.
Just so you know if you are looking at these units you don't have to put in additional contacts.

 

[Little Bill]

I have had good results from Ziller Electric for buying the generators. Another option is I would let the customer buy the gen. set. Reason being is if you buy and resell it to them and something happens you will be the first they call. If you think Goldstar had problems talking to someone try calling for tech. support. When they ask you for your service number and you tell them you are not a "cert. tech." they will hang up on you. Let the customer deal with the warranty and trying to find a Tech. to work on it.

IMO, you're still going to be the first person they call. Probably thinking you did something wrong with the install. I don't think many customers would have the knowledge to talk to customer support about their problem. They would still want you to talk to customer support for them. I think the better option would be to try and talk them into buying a better brand. Then maybe if they insist on the Generac because it is cheaper let them buy it and explain to them you will only warranty your install. Still you would have to convince them the problem was with the generator and not your install.

 

[goldstar]

IMO, you're still going to be the first person they call. Probably thinking you did something wrong with the install.

That happens in Tennessee too ???

I don't think many customers would have the knowledge to talk to customer support about their problem. They would still want you to talk to customer support for them. I think the better option would be to try and talk them into buying a better brand. Then maybe if they insist on the Generac because it is cheaper let them buy it and explain to them you will only warranty your install. Still you would have to convince them the problem was with the generator and not your install.

It's hard enough getting most homeowners to pull the trigger for a few grand. If you try to bump them up to a Kohler or Cummins/Onan you're asking them to pay a few grand more. Then, instead of thinking "gee, I don't want to go through a power outage in the winter" they conveniently start thinking "awe, what are the chances of that happening". To coin a phrase, "you have to strike while the iron is hot". If Generac or B&G are priced right for residential work then that's the way to go. And, yes, I try to have the homeowner buy the unit unless they want to pay me an add'l 25%. The prices are right out there on the internet for everyone to see so the HO knows exactly what you're paying for the unit. Anyone who buys something for $1.00 and sells it for $1.00 is an idiot.

 

[goldstar]

The "load shedding technology" transfer switches have this integrated in the switch. Generacs switches and the generac switches that are just rebadged have contacts that are labeled AC 1 and AC 2 for up to 2 AC units.
Just so you know if you are looking at these units you don't have to put in additional contacts.

For add'l information here's the link to the data sheet for 100A and 200A Generac xfer switches. If you have more than 2 AC units you can purchase an add'l contactor module. See page 4 :

http://www.electricgeneratorsdirect.com/manuals/rtsinstallguide.pdf

 

[ceb58]

IMO, you're still going to be the first person they call. Probably thinking you did something wrong with the install. I don't think many customers would have the knowledge to talk to customer support about their problem. They would still want you to talk to customer support for them. I think the better option would be to try and talk them into buying a better brand. Then maybe if they insist on the Generac because it is cheaper let them buy it and explain to them you will only warranty your install. Still you would have to convince them the problem was with the generator and not your install.

And after concluding it was not my fault I would talk to CS for my hourly rate.

That happens in Tennessee too ??? It's hard enough getting most homeowners to pull the trigger for a few grand. If you try to bump them up to a Kohler or Cummins/Onan you're asking them to pay a few grand more. Then, instead of thinking "gee, I don't want to go through a power outage in the winter" they conveniently start thinking "awe, what are the chances of that happening". To coin a phrase, "you have to strike while the iron is hot". If Generac or B&G are priced right for residential work then that's the way to go. And, yes, I try to have the homeowner buy the unit unless they want to pay me an add'l 25%. The prices are right out there on the internet for everyone to see so the HO knows exactly what you're paying for the unit. Anyone who buys something for $1.00 and sells it for $1.00 is an idiot.

And you have hit it on the head. I visit a site for generators and they have a ton of DIYers, especially after these storms, come on crying like little girls because they ran out and bought a generator and ATS package and now the electrician is killing them on the install. Some even have the nerve to quote $1200.00 to install it.

 

[goldstar]

And after concluding it was not my fault I would talk to CS for my hourly rate.

And you have hit it on the head. I visit a site for generators and they have a ton of DIYers, especially after these storms, come on crying like little girls because they ran out and bought a generator and ATS package and now the electrician is killing them on the install. Some even have the nerve to quote $1200.00 to install it.

Killing them at $1200.00 ??? You need to move north of the Mason Dixon line and make more $$$ my friend. :thumbsup:

 

[ceb58]

Killing them at $1200.00 ??? You need to move north of the Mason Dixon line and make more $$$ my friend. :thumbsup:

Not me dude:happyno: The guy that was complaining about the $1200.00 was from Indiana. Cheap HO, desperate electrician, bad combo. I need $1200.00 just keeping you in line on the web.:angel:

 

[goldstar]

Well, I now know why EGD told me that the transfer switch was just a "simple pass through device". I looked at a potential job where a homeowner purchased a Kohler 20KW system with an ATS. THAT ATS was a simple pass-through device. That must have been what they were thinking about when they gave me that advice. No breaker inside, just lugs and a transfer mechanism. It's rated for 200 amps but I didn't see any markings that said it was service rated. So, I'm guessing that it would need a breaker to be consiered service rated as others have stated. So, now that arouses my curiosity, would this need a 200 amp main breaker/disconnect in front of it for protection or can this be nippled into the meter enclosure and then fed to the main breaker panel ? Off hand I don't see a violation but I've been known to be wrong before.:roll:

 

[kwired]

Well, I now know why EGD told me that the transfer switch was just a "simple pass through device". I looked at a potential job where a homeowner purchased a Kohler 20KW system with an ATS. THAT ATS was a simple pass-through device. That must have been what they were thinking about when they gave me that advice. No breaker inside, just lugs and a transfer mechanism. It's rated for 200 amps but I didn't see any markings that said it was service rated. So, I'm guessing that it would need a breaker to be consiered service rated as others have stated. So, now that arouses my curiosity, would this need a 200 amp main breaker/disconnect in front of it for protection or can this be nippled into the meter enclosure and then fed to the main breaker panel ? Off hand I don't see a violation but I've been known to be wrong before.:roll:

If it is on the supply side of the service disconnect it will need to be suitable for use as service equipment. This idea should have ended when you said it was not marked as such.

 

[ceb58]

If the ATS is not service rated then you must have a service disconnect between the meters and ATS

 

[goldstar]

Thanks for your replies. I know many of you think I'm asking stupid questions but these generator manufacturers and dealers are pushing products out the door and giving both electricians and homeowners erroneous information. I just want to make sure I have all my ducks in a row.

 

[ceb58]

Thanks for your replies. I know many of you think I'm asking stupid questions but these generator manufacturers and dealers are pushing products out the door and giving both electricians and homeowners erroneous information. I just want to make sure I have all my ducks in a row.

The only stupid question is the one not ask. Just remember the Mfg. and the dealers will not be there installing the unit with you. They will not be there when the inspector comes. This is where you need to learn the do's and don'ts. That is why this forum is invaluable.

 

[masterdiver]

nj

nj

yes here in NJ all inspectors ask for load calc as per 702.5 b or if you use 702.5 b-2 -b then load calc is not required

 

[goldstar]

OK - another off the wall question (again, I'm assuming that someone at Generac did their homework but I've made that mistake before). This situation came up today. The output of a 20KW residential Generac generator comes protected with an 85 amp breaker. Am I required to use Table 310.16, 75 degree column to size the conductors between the generator and the xfer switch ? If so that would mean that the conductors would have to be # 3's. Trouble is the 85 amp breaker won't accept anything larger than # 4's. Any suggestions would be appreciated. Thanks in advance.

 

[ceb58]

OK - another off the wall question (again, I'm assuming that someone at Generac did their homework but I've made that mistake before). This situation came up today. The output of a 20KW residential Generac generator comes protected with an 85 amp breaker. Am I required to use Table 310.16, 75 degree column to size the conductors between the generator and the xfer switch ? If so that would mean that the conductors would have to be # 3's. Trouble is the 85 amp breaker won't accept anything larger than # 4's. Any suggestions would be appreciated. Thanks in advance.

Are you SURE about breaker size? Every 20Kw I have seen come with a 100amp breaker. The gen. is good for 83 continuous amps but they have up sized the breaker to the next standard size. What is the model #?

 

[goldstar]

Sorry. My fault. I got misinformation from the field. It wasn't the breaker size that was the issue. It will deliver 83 amps on a 100 amp breaker and the # 3's will fit. It was the neutral that would only accept a smaller size wire. I beg forgivness.:slaphead: