Terminating to a spare breaker while energized?

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krist003

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Location
USA
Is it permissible to land wires to a spare breaker while the panel is energized (as long as the spare breaker is off)? In reading NFPA 70E, it seems like it can be done. Is a energized electrical work permit needed? Is an arc flash analysis needed?

For that matter, is an arc flash analysis always needed before working on energized equipment?
 
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WorkSafe

Senior Member
Location
Moore, OK
OSHA:

1910.333(a)(1)

"Deenergized parts." Live parts to which an employee may be exposed shall be deenergized before the employee works on or near them, unless the employer can demonstrate that deenergizing introduces additional or increased hazards or is infeasible due to equipment design or operational limitations. Live parts that operate at less than 50 volts to ground need not be deenergized if there will be no increased exposure to electrical burns or to explosion due to electric arcs.

Note 1: Examples of increased or additional hazards include interruption of life support equipment, deactivation of emergency alarm systems, shutdown of hazardous location ventilation equipment, or removal of illumination for an area.

Note 2: Examples of work that may be performed on or near energized circuit parts because of infeasibility due to equipment design or operational limitations include testing of electric circuits that can only be performed with the circuit energized and work on circuits that form an integral part of a continuous industrial process in a chemical plant that would otherwise need to be completely shut down in order to permit work on one circuit or piece of equipment.

Note 3: Work on or near deenergized parts is covered by paragraph (b) of this section.
Click to expand...
emphasis added
 
eric9822

eric9822

Senior Member
Location
Camarillo, CA
Occupation
Electrical and Instrumentation Tech
WorkSafe said:
OSHA:

1910.333(a)(1)

emphasis added
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The problem with this section is the word "near". The definition of near can mean many things to many people. I would think that as long as a person is wearing the appropriate PPE and does not cross the prohibited approach boundary as defined by NFPA70E then the work is allowed. This of course assumes that arc flash hazards are known and adequate arc flash PPE is a available. Just my opinion.
 
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maghazadeh

Senior Member
Location
Campbell CA
I have done hot installation routinely, without any kind of PPE, and guess what I will keep doing.
Maybe because I am from old school where we were taught how to approach and handle hot work.
And thank God that OSHA has no jurisdiction / authority over me. I am not an employee.

That's my thoughts go a head and attack!!!
 
eric9822

eric9822

Senior Member
Location
Camarillo, CA
Occupation
Electrical and Instrumentation Tech
maghazadeh said:
I have done hot installation routinely, without any kind of PPE, and guess what I will keep doing.
Maybe because I am from old school where we were taught how to approach and handle hot work.
And thank God that OSHA has no jurisdiction / authority over me. I am not an employee.

That's my thoughts go a head and attack!!!
Click to expand...

There are bold electricians and there are old electricians. There are not a lot of bold and old electricians. Just sayin.
 
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WorkSafe

Senior Member
Location
Moore, OK
maghazadeh said:
I have done hot installation routinely, without any kind of PPE, and guess what I will keep doing.
Maybe because I am from old school where we were taught how to approach and handle hot work.
And thank God that OSHA has no jurisdiction / authority over me. I am not an employee.

That's my thoughts go a head and attack!!!
Click to expand...

Well, let's just hope you never have any employees working for you then. Electricians who don't shut power down to a simple residential panel are just plain lazy.
 
mivey

mivey

Senior Member
WorkSafe said:
Well, let's just hope you never have any employees working for you then. Electricians who don't shut power down to a simple residential panel are just plain lazy.
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Sounds like something that would be said by someone who has not "been there" or "done that". Laziness probably has very little to do with it. In fact, I would argue that the opposite is true. There are other things weighing on the mind of the electrician that would influence their choice and laziness is probably at the bottom of the list.
 
zog

zog

Senior Member
Location
Charlotte, NC
krist003 said:
Is it permissible to land wires to a spare breaker while the panel is energized (as long as the spare breaker is off)? In reading NFPA 70E, it seems like it can be done. Is a energized electrical work permit needed? Is an arc flash analysis needed?

For that matter, is an arc flash analysis always needed before working on energized equipment?
Click to expand...

There are 3 issues here. #1, can you justify not shutting the whole panel off? Think about that as if you were in court trying to convince a judge as to why you could not shut it down. If the live work cannot be justifed, shut it down. If you think it can be justified, continue reading (And yes you need an EEWP).

Issue #2, shock hazard, if you cross the RAB with either a body part or a conductive object you are required to waer shock protection PPE rated for the voltage level you are exposed to (Which you have yet to mention), in most cases this simply means rubber gloves.

Issue #3, arc flash hazard, you either need to conduct an arc flash analysis or use the tables to select the required arc flash PPE, to use the tables you need to ensure your available fault current and clearing time of the upstream protective device falls within the limits of the tables (Notes).
 
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