Terminating to a spare breaker while energized?

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eric9822 said:
The problem with this section is the word "near". The definition of near can mean many things to many people. I would think that as long as a person is wearing the appropriate PPE and does not cross the prohibited approach boundary as defined by NFPA70E then the work is allowed. This of course assumes that arc flash hazards are known and adequate arc flash PPE is a available. Just my opinion.
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2012 70E provided some clarification

130.2 Electrically Safe Working Conditions.. Energized electrical conductors and circuit parts to which an employee might be exposed shall be put into an electrically safe work condition if any of the following conditions exist:
(1) The employee is within the Limited Approach Boundary.
(2) The employee is within the Arc Flash Boundary.
(3) The employee interacts with equipment where conductors or circuit parts are not exposed, but an increased risk of arc flash hazard exists.

and...

(B) Energized Electrical Work Permit.
(1) When Required. When working within the limited approach boundary or the arc flash boundary of exposed energized electrical conductors or circuit parts that are not
placed in an electrically safe work condition (i.e., for the reasons of increased or additional hazards or infeasibility per 130.1), work to be performed shall be considered energized electrical work and shall be performed by written permit only.
 
mivey said:
Sounds like something that would be said by someone who has not "been there" or "done that". Laziness probably has very little to do with it. In fact, I would argue that the opposite is true. There are other things weighing on the mind of the electrician that would influence their choice and laziness is probably at the bottom of the list.
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That is the typical excuse we normally get when finding a violation. They typically say, "I've been doing this for 40 years." I reply that they should consider themselves lucky that they haven't been injured or killed from their complacency. They will also say, "it will take too much time to comply...blah blah blah." Well, sorry buddy, law is the law, and you should do a better job factoring in these safety requirements when doing the bid. If they don't play by the rules, that employee is putting himself and their employeer at risk for serious legal ramifications. I also understand the company can have a bad culture, in which management doesn't even care...these are the real dangerous employeers.

Granted, I am in the OS&H field, so I know I won't be able to convince everyone.
 
WorkSafe said:
Well, let's just hope you never have any employees working for you then. Electricians who don't shut power down to a simple residential panel are just plain lazy.
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Just how would you go about shutting down the power to a typical residence? Many have no disconnect between the meter and the load center. You would have to get the POCO to come out and pull the meter in most cases.

You would still have to suit up to test that the voltage has been removed.

It is just one example of the ramifications of people who just plain do not understand the business writing the safety rules.
 
petersonra said:
Just how would you go about shutting down the power to a typical residence? Many have no disconnect between the meter and the load center. You would have to get the POCO to come out and pull the meter in most cases.

You would still have to suit up to test that the voltage has been removed.

It is just one example of the ramifications of people who just plain do not understand the business writing the safety rules.
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This is part of the reason that Don has written a proposal to change the design of the panel so they are like the ones in Canada. There the main is isolated from the rest of the panel.
 
Dennis Alwon said:
This is part of the reason that Don has written a proposal to change the design of the panel so they are like the ones in Canada. There the main is isolated from the rest of the panel.
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You would still need a moon suit to test that the voltage is gone. And it does nothing for the 100 million installations already out there.
 
petersonra said:
Just how would you go about shutting down the power to a typical residence? Many have no disconnect between the meter and the load center. You would have to get the POCO to come out and pull the meter in most cases.

You would still have to suit up to test that the voltage has been removed.

It is just one example of the ramifications of people who just plain do not understand the business writing the safety rules.
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The OP never said this was residential. In the future, smart meters will make this easier for resi guys.
 
Question answered?

Question answered?

krist003 said:
Is it permissible to land wires to a spare breaker while the panel is energized (as long as the spare breaker is off)? In reading NFPA 70E, it seems like it can be done. Is a energized electrical work permit needed? Is an arc flash analysis needed?

For that matter, is an arc flash analysis always needed before working on energized equipment?
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Has the question been answered? It seems to me that in a properly wired residential panel(no insulation cut back too far) you are not exposed to hazard. If the panel is considered energized, then should the meter be pulled before opening the panel?
 
I was actually referring to a commercial installation, but it seems the law is written that if you are working near energized parts, then it must be de-energized unless you have one of the exemptions. Just seems very overkill when only landing a wire to an off breaker, but i guess that is the sad society we live in, so dummy proof that a monkey can do it.
 
krist003 said:
I was actually referring to a commercial installation, but it seems the law is written that if you are working near energized parts, then it must be de-energized unless you have one of the exemptions. Just seems very overkill when only landing a wire to an off breaker, but i guess that is the sad society we live in, so dummy proof that a monkey can do it.
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4-5 of those monkeys are admitted to a burn center every day from arc flash accidents in the US. Ask thier monkey wives and children if they think the rules are overkill.
 
zog said:
4-5 of those monkeys are admitted to a burn center every day from arc flash accidents in the US. Ask thier monkey wives and children if they think the rules are overkill.
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The issue (for res) isn't laziness. It's having to tell the HO that you will be shutting down the main to hook up one wire to a breaker. That means an orderly shut down for all computers followed by a reset of clocks and modems. This, after having spent up 'till now with the convention being doing it without turning off the main breaker.

I'm all for a requirement that keeps me from having to work hot, but how do we get the HO's on board?

Also, if an electrician shuts the main down, doesn't that put him in the position of having to re-set the clocks, etc., as that is what it would take to return the job to the state previous of shutting down the main?
 
zog said:
4-5 of those monkeys are admitted to a burn center every day from arc flash accidents in the US. Ask thier monkey wives and children if they think the rules are overkill.
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Point taken, and I agree with not doing work live by all means. But I doubt many of these accidents are from landing one wire to a breaker while wearing the proper PPE. And I am willing to bet many of those victims were not qualified to be doing the work in the first place.
 
zog said:
2012 70E provided some clarification

130.2 Electrically Safe Working Conditions.. Energized electrical conductors and circuit parts to which an employee might be exposed shall be put into an electrically safe work condition if any of the following conditions exist:
(1) The employee is within the Limited Approach Boundary.
(2) The employee is within the Arc Flash Boundary.
(3) The employee interacts with equipment where conductors or circuit parts are not exposed, but an increased risk of arc flash hazard exists.

and...

(B) Energized Electrical Work Permit.
(1) When Required. When working within the limited approach boundary or the arc flash boundary of exposed energized electrical conductors or circuit parts that are not
placed in an electrically safe work condition (i.e., for the reasons of increased or additional hazards or infeasibility per 130.1), work to be performed shall be considered energized electrical work and shall be performed by written permit only.
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I have not seen the 2012 edition so thanks for posting. Seems with this wording you can't even enter the limited approach boundary to check voltages.
 
eric9822 said:
I have not seen the 2012 edition so thanks for posting. Seems with this wording you can't even enter the limited approach boundary to check voltages.
Click to expand...

Checking voltages is not "work", that is also specifically explained in 70E, you need to wear PPE but you do not need a permit and there are no other restrictions besides wearing the right PPE to check voltages.
 
WorkSafe said:
That is the typical excuse we normally get when finding a violation. They typically say, "I've been doing this for 40 years." I reply that they should consider themselves lucky that they haven't been injured or killed from their complacency. They will also say, "it will take too much time to comply...blah blah blah." Well, sorry buddy, law is the law, and you should do a better job factoring in these safety requirements when doing the bid. If they don't play by the rules, that employee is putting himself and their employeer at risk for serious legal ramifications. I also understand the company can have a bad culture, in which management doesn't even care...these are the real dangerous employeers.

Granted, I am in the OS&H field, so I know I won't be able to convince everyone.
Click to expand...
I was trying to point out that your premise about laziness was wrong. I've seen many people who do not have a lazy bone in their body doing dangerous things.

IMO, other more realistic factors include some you mention like "I've been doing this X years...", "too much trouble...", "causes too many other problems...", etc. I think near the top of the list would simply be ignorance of the danger and that skill does not negate the danger.
 
mivey said:
I was trying to point out that your premise about laziness was wrong. I've seen many people who do not have a lazy bone in their body doing dangerous things.

IMO, other more realistic factors include some you mention like "I've been doing this X years...", "too much trouble...", "causes too many other problems...", etc. I think near the top of the list would simply be ignorance of the danger and that skill does not negate the danger.
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I understand. Don't mind me, I get a little defensive, but that's only because I have a passion to keep people safe. :happyyes:
 
PetrosA said:
Just out of curiosity, does "shutting down power" to a residential panel mean switching off the main, or pulling the meter?
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You are not permitted to pull the meter while it is energized, so to work in a residential panel, and comply with the electrical safe work rules, you have to have the utility cut the power somewhere on the line side of the panel
 
don_resqcapt19 said:
You are not permitted to pull the meter while it is energized, so to work in a residential panel, and comply with the electrical safe work rules, you have to have the utility cut the power somewhere on the line side of the panel
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I see. I can imagine that goes over really well in areas where a whole street block is fed off of one triplex... ;)
 
krist003 said:
Is it permissible to land wires to a spare breaker while the panel is energized (as long as the spare breaker is off)? In reading NFPA 70E, it seems like it can be done. Is a energized electrical work permit needed? Is an arc flash analysis needed?

For that matter, is an arc flash analysis always needed before working on energized equipment?
Click to expand...

This is ridiculous. A spare breaker is already installed into a panel of unspecified voltage. With the breaker open, I have no problem with an experienced electrician wearing gloves, fr shirt, and eye protection landing a conductor. No moon suit. No utility shut down. Let's be real here.
 
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