Terminating to a spare breaker while energized?

[Teaspoon]

It is basically an enclosure within the enclosure. The inner enclosure covers the line side conductors and the main breaker. It would be made of the same material as the rest of the enclosure.

Bob did point out the issue of the line side enclosure taking up one end of the panel making branch circuit wiring more difficult. This rule in the Canadian code is why you often see panels mounted horizontally and not vertically. They do not have a rule like the one in 404.7 that requires vertically operated breakers to have the breaker on with the handle up. The rule in 404.7 effectively prohibits the horizontal installation of a panel.

There are a number of ways this issue could be resolved. Breakers could be made in two versions, a top and a bottom version that would permit a horizontal installation and still have all of the breakers on with the handle in the up position. The easiest way to make this work would be to use a wider panel that allows vertical wireways within the panel from the top to the bottom to permit the installation of branch circuit conductors without interfering with the line side barrier sub-enclosure.

One solution would be an outside disconnect. Maybe not the best option.
Personally I like having a disconnect. it provides several pro's.
I know there are also some con's

 

[iwire]

One solution would be an outside disconnect. Maybe not the best option.
Personally I like having a disconnect. it provides several pro's.
I know there are also some con's

Ultimately that may be the best solution, an outside disconnect that is stand alone or perhaps in combo with a meter socket but not part of an outdoor panelboard. (There are areas that dwelling unit panelboards are often meter / main / panel board combinations.)

 

[zog]

I understand that checking voltages is not "work". From the NFPA70E section you posted:

130.2 Electrically Safe Working Conditions.. Energized electrical conductors and circuit parts to which an employee might be exposed shall be put into an electrically safe work condition if any of the following conditions exist:
(1) The employee is within the Limited Approach Boundary.
(2) The employee is within the Arc Flash Boundary.
(3) The employee interacts with equipment where conductors or circuit parts are not exposed, but an increased risk of arc flash hazard exists.

Conditions one and two make it sound like a person cannot even stand within those boundaries if the equipment is energized.

You are taking that out of context, you have to read the parts before that

 

[Flex]

Your exposed to live parts every time you plug something in. Why does that get overlooked?

 

[iwire]

Your exposed to live parts every time you plug something in. Why does that get overlooked?

You seem to assume it will not be.

But TR receptacles are in fact a step that direction and if you look at other countries receptacles they are shielded. I expect that eventually we will see that here as well.

See how this is recessed?

It keeps you from being exposed to the live pins of the plug.

 

[don_resqcapt19]

One solution would be an outside disconnect. Maybe not the best option.
Personally I like having a disconnect. it provides several pro's.
I know there are also some con's

Yes, an enclosure with just the main would be an easy way to solve the problem. The wording on one of my two proposals would only apply to enclosures that contain the service OCPD along with branch circuit or feeder OCPDs.

 

[Little Bill]

The upper row of breakers would be 'ON' in the down position, that is a violation.

You're correct, I was only thinking of them being indicating. The upper row would say no instead of on.:slaphead:

 

[Flex]

You seem to assume it will not be.

But TR receptacles are in fact a step that direction and if you look at other countries receptacles they are shielded. I expect that eventually we will see that here as well.

See how this is recessed?

It keeps you from being exposed to the live pins of the plug.

Good to see they are always trying to keep safety 1st. Looks like a pretty decent design.

 

[zog]

Your exposed to live parts every time you plug something in. Why does that get overlooked?

Because you are wrong, read the definitions

 

[the blur]

ok, I need to open a residential panel in the basement. I drop all the load, go outside, & pull the meter. Now the house is pitch black, and the basement steps are cluttered. So I go back outside, get my flashlight. It's not enough light, so I pull my generator off my truck, (and hurt my back while doing it), run all my extension cords and temp lighting into the basement. I trip over basement clutter, and extension cords, my tools go flying all over. So now I'm picking up all my tools. The home owners food is melting, she is screaming about no power in the house.

But I replace a bad breaker in 2 minutes. Now I have to go back upstairs, behind the house to plug the meter back in. the big dog is in the backyard, and looks real mean. But I kicked the dog, and got the meter back in.

Now the house is still black, because the main is off, can't plug the meter in while the main is on.......
But I make my way back in the house, without tripping this time, and put the main back on. But the main is giving me a problem, as it hasn't been cycled in 20 years. Takes me 2 or 3 trys to get the main back on.

Now I have to put my generator and lighting back on my truck, and wind up all my extension cords.
Now I'm upstairs in the house resetting all the clocks, walking around with my muddy boots, and the HO is screaming more. But I'm explaining this is the law, and I must follow the law. and when I'm done, I need to call the poco to put a new seal on the meter.

and I'm doing 3 calls a day rather than 8 calls a day. I love this practical way of doing my job.

 

[iwire]

ok, I need to open a residential panel in the basement. I drop all the load, go outside, & pull the meter. Now the house is pitch black, and the basement steps are cluttered. So I go back outside, get my flashlight. It's not enough light, so I pull my generator off my truck, (and hurt my back while doing it), run all my extension cords and temp lighting into the basement. I trip over basement clutter, and extension cords, my tools go flying all over. So now I'm picking up all my tools. The home owners food is melting, she is screaming about no power in the house.

But I replace a bad breaker in 2 minutes. Now I have to go back upstairs, behind the house to plug the meter back in. the big dog is in the backyard, and looks real mean. But I kicked the dog, and got the meter back in.

Now the house is still black, because the main is off, can't plug the meter in while the main is on.......
But I make my way back in the house, without tripping this time, and put the main back on. But the main is giving me a problem, as it hasn't been cycled in 20 years. Takes me 2 or 3 trys to get the main back on.

Now I have to put my generator and lighting back on my truck, and wind up all my extension cords.
Now I'm upstairs in the house resetting all the clocks, walking around with my muddy boots, and the HO is screaming more. But I'm explaining this is the law, and I must follow the law. and when I'm done, I need to call the poco to put a new seal on the meter.

and I'm doing 3 calls a day rather than 8 calls a day. I love this practical way of doing my job.

It sounds like you are very bad at thinking ahead, perhaps you would do better in another line of work?

 

[the blur]

actually it's the NFPA70E rule author that can not think ahead of being practical. My example was just to show working in the dark creates more hazards than the experienced professional, who knows how to work in a live panel.

Take a pole of experienced electricians who pull a residental meter to land one wire on a new breaker.
I bet it's .01%, because it's just not practical.

Spending 20 minutes on hold with the power company to replace a meter seal is not happening is a REAL WORLD.

yes, tell me all the rules, and the laws, etc, etc, etc. then tell me what happens in the REAL WORLD.

 

[iwire]

actually it's the NFPA70E rule author that can not think ahead of being practical. My example was just to show working in the dark creates more hazards than the experienced professional, who knows how to work in a live panel.

An experienced professional knows to bring lighting with them when killing power.

An experienced professional knows that accidents can happen to anyone.

Take a pole of experienced electricians who pull a residental meter to land one wire on a new breaker.
I bet it's .01%, because it's just not practical.

That does not change the fact it is a violation that can result in expesive fines.

Spending 20 minutes on hold with the power company to replace a meter seal is not happening is a REAL WORLD.

Fines are real world as well and if you are the boss having your guys work in live panels you deserve to get fined.

yes, tell me all the rules, and the laws, etc, etc, etc. then tell me what happens in the REAL WORLD.

I work for a large EC and in the real world we don't do hot work.

Many of our customers would fire us for doing live work

We use safety to sell the company.

 

[the blur]

>>Many of our customers would fire us for doing live work<<

I find that HARD TO BELIEVE, because customers do NOT know the difference, or do they care.

Mrs. Homeowner, do you know or care how I proceed to do my job? and the 10 minutes you explain it to her, I could have been done already, and charged her 1/2 the price.

Should plumbers be banned from using torches because they might get burnt?
Should ladders not be allowed on job sites ?you might slip and fall off.

Yes, I realize you will have an answer to everything I will say.

IMHO, this is one area where some over zelous gov't person overstepped their bounds.

 

[iwire]

>>Many of our customers would fire us for doing live work<<

I find that HARD TO BELIEVE, because customers do NOT know the difference, or do they care.

Believe it.:thumbsup:

 

[don_resqcapt19]

>>Many of our customers would fire us for doing live work<<

I find that HARD TO BELIEVE, because customers do NOT know the difference, or do they care.

Mrs. Homeowner, do you know or care how I proceed to do my job? and the 10 minutes you explain it to her, I could have been done already, and charged her 1/2 the price.

...

While Mr. or Mrs. homeowner and many commerical customers won't tell us that, a lot of large industrial customers will....even those where the down time to do the work safely can cost tens of thousands of dollars an hour.

 

[the blur]

While Mr. or Mrs. homeowner and many commerical customers won't tell us that, a lot of large industrial customers will....even those where the down time to do the work safely can cost tens of thousands of dollars an hour.

EXACTLY my point. your dealing with an industrial plant. 480/277 with 10 zillion amps of fault current, but I'm dealing with a single phase residental service with limited fault current. But the laws do not differntiate between the 2. Practicality!

 

[iwire]

EXACTLY my point. your dealing with an industrial plant. 480/277 with 10 zillion amps of fault current, but I'm dealing with a single phase residental service with limited fault current.

I am dealing with retail stores, many times simple 120 volt 20 amp circuits. Our service contracts with these acounts require compliance with OSHA, NEC and 70E.

But the laws do not differentiate between the 2. Practicality!

Actually the rules do differentiate, the level of PPE you would have to wear is based on the fault current available.

But more to the point electricians get killed at dwelling units just like they get killed at factories.

More of us get killed by 120 volts than any other voltage.

 

[Little Bill]

I am dealing with retail stores, many times simple 120 volt 20 amp circuits. Our service contracts with these acounts require compliance with OSHA, NEC and 70E.



Actually the rules do differentiate, the level of PPE you would have to wear is based on the fault current available.

But more to the point electricians get killed at dwelling units just like they get killed at factories.

More of us get killed by 120 volts than any other voltage.

Have you been killed? I hadn't heard.hmy:

 

[Wagbag]

Wagbag

Wagbag

You need PPE and the authorization from the contractor who gets the offical nod from the customer...in writing. Depending on the voltage you are working on, there might be additioal precautions taken such as the use insulation blackets and so forth. If you have never worked on this type of circuit before, I would suggest that you get a contractor who has. Electrical burns are nasty and electrical explosions are violent.