120/208 voltages? changing this to 240v

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highpowered

Member
Location
los angeles
What types of 120/208 setups are there. I know for instance a,b,c, phases at 120v gives you 208 crossing them. I have seen 120/120/208 which should give me 240v crossing a or b with c.... if I have the first scenario at the service how would i go about getting 240? Is adding a transformer at the subpanel my only option?
 

texie

Senior Member
Location
Fort Collins, Colorado
Occupation
Electrician, Contractor, Inspector
You may have other options depending on the size and type of load. Also are you sure that you have to have 240? Most stuff today is 208/240 but of course it's not a hard and fast rule. I just had some medical equipment the other day that the manufacturer insisted it be supplied with 240 volt.
 
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kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
What types of 120/208 setups are there. I know for instance a,b,c, phases at 120v gives you 208 crossing them. I have seen 120/120/208 which should give me 240v crossing a or b with c.... if I have the first scenario at the service how would i go about getting 240? Is adding a transformer at the subpanel my only option?

Can you please describe the situation where you have seen 120/120/208?

Typically 120/208 is derived from wye connected windings. Even if you have a 120/208 single phase supply it is probably just two phases and a neutral from a wye system.

If you need to increase voltage for an individual load maybe a buck/boost transformer is what you are looking for.
 

infinity

Moderator
Staff member
Location
New Jersey
Occupation
Journeyman Electrician
Can you please describe the situation where you have seen 120/120/208?

3?,4W Delta is one that comes to mind if measuring each phase to ground. He could have written it as 120/208/120 since the B phase would be required to be the phase with a higher voltage to ground.
 

templdl

Senior Member
Location
Wisconsin
What are you trying to power and what is the kva that you need? One of the other guys asked if was to be 240v 3ph that you need or 120v/240 1ph 3w, or maybe 240v/120 3ph4w?
Generally I believe that you have a 208Y/120 source from what I can tell.
 

highpowered

Member
Location
los angeles
yes i meant 120/208/120 is my 240 situation . I have a 200 amp 3phase setup now. The power is turned off I cant test the voltage . he says its 120/ 208w 3phase 4wire. im upgrading to 600 amp for the owner of the building . He wants to be able to attract more clients with 2 subpanels available for heavy equipment. My concern is that the 208 3phase will be a deterrent for company's that have 240v equipment. Of course I have the problem of not being able to give a specific load as there is no tenant yet. I have made up calculations based on common machines to submit the one line to the power company.
 

infinity

Moderator
Staff member
Location
New Jersey
Occupation
Journeyman Electrician
Sounds like you'll need a 3?,4W Delta secondary transformer which will provide both 120 and 240 volts. Your 120 volt loads would be somewhat limited. A 240Y/139 volt Wye secondary wouldn't work because the voltage to neutral would be unusable. If you only needed straight 240 then a 3?,3W Delta secondary would be just fine.
 

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
yes i meant 120/208/120 is my 240 situation . I have a 200 amp 3phase setup now. The power is turned off I cant test the voltage . he says its 120/ 208w 3phase 4wire. im upgrading to 600 amp for the owner of the building . He wants to be able to attract more clients with 2 subpanels available for heavy equipment. My concern is that the 208 3phase will be a deterrent for company's that have 240v equipment. Of course I have the problem of not being able to give a specific load as there is no tenant yet. I have made up calculations based on common machines to submit the one line to the power company.

You need to find out for certain what you have.

If it is 120/208 Y you can have issues with 240 volt equipment - usually longer heating times for heating type equipment. Most 240 equipment is usable at 208 but you are at your own risk with warranties and such if it is not marked for both voltages.

If it is 120/240 delta with high leg you have lost one third of your available 120 volt source vs the wye system without additional transformation. If most of the load is 120 volt this may not be good. If the majority of the load is motors this would be preferred over the wye.
 

highpowered

Member
Location
los angeles
Ok,thanks to everyone who replied. ill include the transformer in the proposal. Could I use 1 transformer for 2 200 amp subpanels? Any ideas on making a projected panel load schedule without having the loads for plan check? I need to submit nameplate ratings to justify my 600 amp upgrade.
 

maghazadeh

Senior Member
Location
Campbell CA
yes i meant 120/208/120 is my 240 situation . I have a 200 amp 3phase setup now. The power is turned off I cant test the voltage . he says its 120/ 208w 3phase 4wire. im upgrading to 600 amp for the owner of the building . He wants to be able to attract more clients with 2 subpanels available for heavy equipment. My concern is that the 208 3phase will be a deterrent for company's that have 240v equipment. Of course I have the problem of not being able to give a specific load as there is no tenant yet. I have made up calculations based on common machines to submit the one line to the power company.

There are many ways to figure what voltage the existing service is, one is voltage test.
Other ways are;
1) Remove cover and see if there is black, red, blue, white phase marking on the feeder wires indicating (120/208V, 3ph, 4wire), or black, orange, blue, white telling you it is 120/208/240V,3ph,4wire.
2) In existing panel if you see single pole CBs on all A,B,C phases, then that tells you it is 120/208V, if you see 2 single pole CBs side by side and one space not used by single pole CB, that tells you it is 120/208/240V.
3) If the service is overhead to a pole mounted transformer most likely it is 120/208/240V. and if there is a pad mounted transformer least liky is a 120/208/240V. I hope you know what I mean by 120/208/240V.
4) Look at sorrounding, are you in a industerial area or commercial. Is there a chance for a machine shop / heavy industerial business to move in or just office / store type.
 

maghazadeh

Senior Member
Location
Campbell CA
Ok,thanks to everyone who replied. ill include the transformer in the proposal. Could I use 1 transformer for 2 200 amp subpanels? Any ideas on making a projected panel load schedule without having the loads for plan check? I need to submit nameplate ratings to justify my 600 amp upgrade.

You don't provide the service transformer, utility company will.
 

Jraef

Moderator, OTD
Staff member
Location
San Francisco Bay Area, CA, USA
Occupation
Electrical Engineer
yes i meant 120/208/120 is my 240 situation . I have a 200 amp 3phase setup now. The power is turned off I cant test the voltage . he says its 120/ 208w 3phase 4wire. im upgrading to 600 amp for the owner of the building . He wants to be able to attract more clients with 2 subpanels available for heavy equipment. My concern is that the 208 3phase will be a deterrent for company's that have 240v equipment. Of course I have the problem of not being able to give a specific load as there is no tenant yet. I have made up calculations based on common machines to submit the one line to the power company.

I'm sorry if this sounds condescending, I'm not trying to be, I'm trying to help by educating. But I think it's important as an electrical professional for you to get used to describing power systems in the same convention as everyone else so as to avoid the kind of confusion created in the beginning of this post. When you describe a 3 phase power system, you should always describe it in terms of the Line to Line voltage first, followed by the Line to Neutral voltage (if any), and NEVER with the Line to Ground voltage, because that can be deceiving.

So I believe, as others have said, that what you are describing as "120-120-208" or even "120-208-120" is in fact, 240/120V 3 phase 4 wire, where the Line to Line voltage is 240 delta (on all three phases), the Line to Neutral is 120 on A and C, and that's it. You NEVER describe the Line to Ground voltage because it is not a legitimate connection that can be used. In the case of a 240/120 3Ph 4W transformer, the B phase to ground will usually measure 208V, but again, that is just an interesting side note, you are not permitted to use that connection for anything.

Unfortunately because 208Y/120 3Ph4W is another legit voltage class, you describing yours as 120-208-120 is only going to continue the confusion.

Re-240V equipment with a 208V feed: as others have said, MOST equipment is fine with it, i.e. motors, because the NEMA design specs are for +- 10% of nominal, which you will find is usually 230V, not 240V*. So 230 x .9 = 207V, marginally OK. When you see a motor that is labeled "208-230V", then that usually means that is was designed as 220V, because 220-10% is 198V and 220+10% = 242V, so it's a good compromise. Heaters will just take longer (less heat) and most things with power supplies have a very wide voltage tolerance.

* 240V is what's called the "Distribution Voltage", 230V is called the "Utilization Voltage". It's that way all around: 460V vs 480V, 115V vs 120V etc. etc.
 
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jim dungar

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Wisconsin
Occupation
PE (Retired) - Power Systems
When you describe a 3 phase power system, you should always describe it in terms of the Line to Line voltage first, followed by the Line to Neutral voltage (if any), and NEVER with the Line to Ground voltage, because that can be deceiving.
Yes, as professionals we should no different power system terminology.

The IEEE/ANSI standards (see IEEE Red book) for describing voltages is basically:
For single phase systems use L-N/L-L

For three phase systems use L-L/L-N, with the Y symbol included before the '/' for grounded wye applications.

Personally I try to add additional descriptors (Ph = phase, W = wires) when I list voltages, just in case some one is not following standard methodology. Also utilities tend have their own nomenclature.
120V 1Ph 2W
120/240 1Ph 3W
240V 1Ph 2W
120/208 1Ph 3W

208Y/120 3Ph 4W
240V 3Ph, 3W
240/120 3Ph 4W
480Y/277 3Ph 4W
480V 3Ph 3W
 

highpowered

Member
Location
los angeles
I appreciate the responses. I only deal with 3phase stuff once a year so please forgive my terms as I know this confuses people who deal with this all the time. My goal here is to learn as much as I can about transformers and 3phase systems. To recap most motor loads will be fine on 208 volts, except heating. The utility transformer is on the ground it also feeds another seperate building on the property so it is least likely a 120/208/240v. It is 1 of 2 commercial/industrial buildings in a residential area. The service has been riped out by thieves along with the sub panels theres just the stub up from the transformer. The transformer I was refering to would be used at the sub-panel inside to obtain 220v+if needed. I just want to let my client know that the 208v could or could not pose a problem for what he is trying to accomplish. I like this site!
TX
 

highpowered

Member
Location
los angeles
Yes, as professionals we should no different power system terminology.

The IEEE/ANSI standards (see IEEE Red book) for describing voltages is basically:
For single phase systems use L-N/L-L

For three phase systems use L-L/L-N, with the Y symbol included before the '/' for grounded wye applications.

Personally I try to add additional descriptors (Ph = phase, W = wires) when I list voltages, just in case some one is not following standard methodology. Also utilities tend have their own nomenclature.
120V 1Ph 2W
120/240 1Ph 3W
240V 1Ph 2W
120/208 1Ph 3W

208Y/120 3Ph 4W
240V 3Ph, 3W
240/120 3Ph 4W
480Y/277 3Ph 4W
480V 3Ph 3W

Thank you this helps!
 

kbsparky

Senior Member
Location
Delmarva, USA
If you want to make the premises more marketable, they I'd suggest they consider installing a 480Y/277 service.

Then you can set all the transformers you want for 208Y/120 or 240, etc.
 

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
I would find out what POCO is willing to supply you with. If you are wanting to upgrade and the existing transformer is not large enough it is probably going to cost the customer either way, may as well get what kind of service you want instead of dealing with what is there. Even 480/277 Y may be worth consideration, especially if a lot of motor load and fluorescent or HID lighting.
 

maghazadeh

Senior Member
Location
Campbell CA
I appreciate the responses. I only deal with 3phase stuff once a year so please forgive my terms as I know this confuses people who deal with this all the time. My goal here is to learn as much as I can about transformers and 3phase systems. To recap most motor loads will be fine on 208 volts, except heating. The utility transformer is on the ground it also feeds another seperate building on the property so it is least likely a 120/208/240v. It is 1 of 2 commercial/industrial buildings in a residential area. The service has been riped out by thieves along with the sub panels theres just the stub up from the transformer. The transformer I was refering to would be used at the sub-panel inside to obtain 220v+if needed. I just want to let my client know that the 208v could or could not pose a problem for what he is trying to accomplish. I like this site!
TX

The way you are describing, it is probably a small comercial real estate, I am guessing under 4000 sq ft. Also you mentioned existing pad mounted tranny is feeding another building, so you need to stay with the same voltage rating as existing utility tranny is. I don't think it is feasable to go with 480/277V Y service, since transformers will occupy some floor space and for that size bldg. you are not dealing with a large load anyway.
 
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