Spa GFCI Breaker Tripping

[zog]

Can the overload setting of a breaker be changed to stop it from tripping?

Yeah, it gets done everyday. Many times I have been called out to t/s a main at a plant tripping on LT (O.L) which should bever happen if the system was properly designed, so I always go look at the feeder breaker settings and sure enough, find one or serveral dailed all the way up

 

[T.M.Haja Sahib]

Can the overload setting of a breaker be changed to stop it from tripping?

I am ready to explain to you how the overload setting of a breaker be changed to stop it from tripping.But I do not want you to become a disturbed person again by my technical deliberations, as you did elsewhere.......:lol:

 

[jim dungar]

I am ready to explain to you how the overload setting of a breaker be changed to stop it from tripping.

In the US you are not allowed to change the trip setting of a molded case circuit breaker (those built to UL489), unless it was built to be changed. Easily 90% of molded case breaker are not designed to have their trip settings modified.
Power circuit breaker, sometimes called ANSI breakers, are designed to have adjustments made to them.

GFCI breakers are very specific devices, they must operate at a 5mA trip point. There are ground fault devices which have different trip characteristics, but they cannot be used when the NEC specifically requires GFCIs.

 

[PetrosA]

The GFCI may be replaced with one of lower sensitivity,with due care not to compromise safety.

T.M., Your approach puzzles me here, as it has in other of your replies. As an electrical engineer, you should be aware of what a ground fault interrupting device that's designed to protect people from electrocution does and you should understand the concept behind the 5 mA setting they have built into them. There is a vast chasm of difference between this kind of ground fault detection and the adjustable kind designed to protect equipment. Suggesting someone make an adjustment or replacement to decrease it's sensitivity at the least indicates a dangerous level of ignorance and at most borders on criminal negligence in my mind and suggests that your engineering degree may not be relevant to your participation on this forum.

 

[Hv&Lv]

Spa guys are like PoCo guys, never a problem on thier end

As far as the OP's issue, megger it.

I wouldn't go that far...
Sometimes PoCo guys find electricians problems for them..:lol:

 

[kwired]

if solid wires were in the instructions that came with the unit? :huh:

I believe NEC does not allow 8 AWG and larger to be solid in general.

Tech support for consumer produts is almost totally useless today. My bet would be the heating element too. Groundfaults upstream of your gfci aren't causing the tripping. Do you have a megger? I would disconnect the heating element and meg it to ground, or even stick an electrode in the water and meg to that.

Tech support people like that are part of the reason I am planning an exodus to "Galt's Gulch" :lol:

Just connect megger from heater to EGC terminal - that is the path leakage will be finding anyway.

I just went through this myself. I did a "cheater" test; I opened the control box, disconnected the leads going to the heater, turned on the GFI breaker and it held in, proving (to me) that it was the heater elements. There is a non-conductive sheath over the NiChrome wire, if it corrodes, it leaks current. That's why you have a GFI breaker!

I am glad I'm not a Spa Tech though. I did it myself... never again! I was thinking it was an electrical problem and the heater element was cheap on-line, so why would I hire someone else? Total PITA when you mix plumbing and electrical. It was the plumbing stuff that really set me off. A lot of the parts were assembled and glued in place, no way to dismantle them without cutting the PVC pipe. Then in some areas they didn't leave you enough to glue a coupling back in afterward. Other fittings were obviously assembled with the tub on a bench upside down, so were nearly impossible to access with it installed. The NEXT time I have to change the heater element, I'm either going to pay some numbnuts to do it or I'm going to buy a new spa.

All the ones I have replaced did not involve modifying any plumbing - usually a union on each side of the section containing the heater.

Could the sensitivity of the GFCI be reduced to stop tripping?

Isn't it easier to just use a standard breaker instead of a GFCI breaker if that is the goal?

 

[T.M.Haja Sahib]

T.M., Your approach puzzles me here, as it has in other of your replies. As an electrical engineer, you should be aware of what a ground fault interrupting device that's designed to protect people from electrocution does and you should understand the concept behind the 5 mA setting they have built into them. There is a vast chasm of difference between this kind of ground fault detection and the adjustable kind designed to protect equipment.

See the recommendation by IEC in Europe (GFCI is called RCD there)

Sensitivity

RCD sensitivity is expressed as the rated residual operating current, noted IΔn. Preferred values have been defined by the IEC, thus making it possible to divide RCDs into three groups according to their IΔn value.

• High sensitivity (HS): 6 – 10 – 30 mA (for direct-contact / life injury protection)
• Medium sensitivity (MS): 100 – 300 – 500 – 1000 mA (for fire protection)
• Low sensitivity (LS): 3 – 10 – 30 A (typically for protection of machine)

See the GFCI requirement in North America

''The electrical codes require GFCI devices intended to protect people to interrupt the circuit if the leakage current exceeds a range of 4–6 mA of current (the trip setting is typically 5 mA) within 25 ms. A GFCI device which protects equipment (not people) is allowed to trip as high as 30 mA of current; this is known as an Equipment Protective Device (EPD)''

My recommendation was vary the sensitivity of GFCI within that 4-6mA of current (by replacing the GFCI) to see that the tripping problem is solved.

Suggesting someone make an adjustment or replacement to decrease it's sensitivity at the least indicates a dangerous level of ignorance and at most borders on criminal negligence in my mind and suggests that your engineering degree may not be relevant to your participation on this forum.

You could have been kinder to a foreign Engineer......

 

[PetrosA]

My recommendation was vary the sensitivity of GFCI within that 4-6mA of current (by replacing the GFCI) to see that the tripping problem is solved.



You could have been kinder to a foreign Engineer......

You're command of the English language is good enough that you should be expressing yourself more concisely. The fact that you are not American doesn't interest me at all. I lived abroad for too many years for that kind of pettiness. Aside from the lack of clarity there are some other shortcomings to your argument:

A Class A GFCI device is rated, as you noted, to work with a tolerance between 4 mA and 6 mA. Imbalances in that range are probably beyond the accuracy rating of the average electrician's multimeter/clamp meter in the current range here in the US (we don't have installation testers). Therefore, he or she would have no way to confirm what the trip current is on the installed breaker, nor what the replacement breaker would trip at.

The breakers themselves are expensive - a two-pole 50A GFCI costs between $80 and $180 depending on manufacturer. This is not a product that you buy four or five of to play guessing games as to which will have a 6 mA trip.

And finally, because this affects life safety, a much more responsible approach from the electrician is to determine what is causing the trip in the first place rather than to find a workaround - especially since it is possible to detect a ground fault with the tools we have at hand. If you took your car to a mechanic because an error light came on indicating a problem with your brakes, wouldn't you prefer that the mechanic figured out the error first rather than just disable or readjust the sensor?

 

[T.M.Haja Sahib]

A Class A GFCI device is rated, as you noted, to work with a tolerance between 4 mA and 6 mA. Imbalances in that range are probably beyond the accuracy rating of the average electrician's multimeter/clamp meter in the current range here in the US (we don't have installation testers). Therefore, he or she would have no way to confirm what the trip current is on the installed breaker, nor what the replacement breaker would trip at.

Do not remain confused. Here the problem is not the measurement of leakage current measurement.The problem is tripping of GFCI.Look at the tripping GFCI.If its sensitivity rating is 4 mA,you are permitted to try a GFCI with a sensitivity rating up to 6mA.Clear,isn't?

 

[iwire]

Do not remain confused. Here the problem is not the measurement of leakage current measurement.The problem is tripping of GFCI.Look at the tripping GFCI.If its sensitivity rating is 4 mA,you are permitted to try a GFCI with a sensitivity rating up to 6mA.Clear,isn't?

You remain totally clueless.

 

[ramsy]

Industrial Commercial Electronic, Inc. (ICE) (c) 1997 --later aquired by Ideal-- had a GFCI test function on its SHURTEST for several years. The original ICE units displayed the trip current in milliamperes; after acquired by IDEAL they displayed seconds to trip, adding 1 miliamp per second.

Using a Suretest for most GFCI installs, I've never found a reading over 6Ma or 6 seconds, but did replace one that tripped between 3-4Ma. This particular GFCI was outdoors, behind a spring loaded cover, which became an increasing nuisance over time.

Replacing the old GFCI & connectors fixed this problem, but arcing is typical with old Scotchlocks, burning new paths to ground, so the relative low sensitivity of this old GFCI may have been an unrelated coincidence.

I would like to add, in the 1990's American Business Schools taught their management students that workers from India may follow a caste system, not familiar to Western cultures. Rather than explain the caste system, they just said, "Do not expect to have any authority unless you are clearly a manager in charge."

Authority between apparent peers in a caste system may require more references to published standards than most trade persons are accustomed. Few are disciplined to provide such effort, much less on unpublished internet forums lacking remuneration. When given for free, the amount of time people devote to composing authoritative citations --beyond a code reference-- requires a lot of motivation.

Even for someone schooled in the Kings English nearly 50 years, some technical concepts remain impossible to compose in one sitting. Its less trouble to stir the pot of confusion, and be amused with the agitation.

 

[kwired]

You remain totally clueless.

Add to that GFCI's are pretty dependable. There is not very many cases of "nuisance" tripping. When there is the GFCI is defective. All other cases have a definite problem and the GFCI is doing what it is intended to do.

 

[don_resqcapt19]

See the recommendation by IEC in Europe (GFCI is called RCD there)

Sensitivity

RCD sensitivity is expressed as the rated residual operating current, noted IΔn. Preferred values have been defined by the IEC, thus making it possible to divide RCDs into three groups according to their IΔn value.

• High sensitivity (HS): 6 ? 10 ? 30 mA (for direct-contact / life injury protection)
• Medium sensitivity (MS): 100 ? 300 ? 500 ? 1000 mA (for fire protection)
• Low sensitivity (LS): 3 ? 10 ? 30 A (typically for protection of machine)

See the GFCI requirement in North America

We are dealing with the NEC and the requirement for a GFCI means a non-adjustable device with a nominal trip of 5 mA.

''The electrical codes require GFCI devices intended to protect people to interrupt the circuit if the leakage current exceeds a range of 4?6 mA of current (the trip setting is typically 5 mA) within 25 ms. A GFCI device which protects equipment (not people) is allowed to trip as high as 30 mA of current; this is known as an

Equipment Protective Device (EPD)''


My recommendation was vary the sensitivity of GFCI within that 4-6mA of current (by replacing the GFCI) to see that the tripping problem is solved.

That would result in both a code and a safety violation. You do not change the protective device so it no longer trips when you have equipment that is causing the protective device to do its job. You repair or replace the equipment. The spa would be a listed product and the UL standards for permitted leakage is 0.05mA or 1/10 of the nominal GFCI trip point. If the equipment is tripping the GFCI you have either a defective GFCI or, much more likely, equipment that has excessive leakage current.

 

[jim dungar]

A GFCI device which protects equipment (not people) is allowed to trip as high as 30 mA of current; this is known as anEquipment Protective Device (EPD)''.

You are reading marketing literature as if it was a code or standard.

The largest set of testing standards used in the US are those from Underwriters Laboratories (UL). GFCI is a very specific term used for devices intended to protect people. There are several classes of GFCI devices, but none of them have trip ratings in excess of 20mA. The most common GFCI is the Class A with a nominal 5mA trip level. Class B, is for use with swimming pool circuit that were built prior to 1965. There are also special classes C, D, and E for circuits with L-G voltages above 150V.

 

[T.M.Haja Sahib]

You are reading marketing literature as if it was a code or standard. The largest set of testing standards used in the US are those from Underwriters Laboratories (UL). GFCI is a very specific term used for devices intended to protect people. There are several classes of GFCI devices, but none of them have trip ratings in excess of 20mA. The most common GFCI is the Class A with a nominal 5mA trip level. Class B, is for use with swimming pool circuit that were built prior to 1965. There are also special classes C, D, and E for circuits with L-G voltages above 150V.

What sensitivity and class of GFCI is required for the present case ?

 

[infinity]

What sensitivity and class of GFCI is required for the present case ?

Class A, 5ma trip (+/-1ma).

If the device is tripping there is a problem with the equipment. Then equipment is designed to operate with a Class A GFCI.

 

[don_resqcapt19]

What sensitivity and class of GFCI is required for the present case ?

Any time the NEC uses the term "GFCI" it requires the use of a Class A device, that is one with a nominal trip of 5mA. See the definitions in Article 100.

 

[Sierrasparky]

T.M.Haja Sahib

Does your country allow and do suppliers sell a GFCI wall outlet or breaker that protects people that has an adjustable trip for GF.

As others state we don't, Maybe this is the confusion.

 

[Twoskinsoneman]

Could the sensitivity of the GFCI be reduced to stop tripping?

No. There are no adjustments that can be made by field engineers.

They are designed to save lives and they work.

Wow.

I figured out a way a long time ago. Take out that odd looking "curly white wire" breaker and put in one of them regular ones.

 

[ptonsparky]

Wow.

I figured out a way a long time ago. Take out that odd looking "curly white wire" breaker and put in one of them regular ones.

:slaphead:
I feel so dumb. Why didn't I think of it.