Reverse Polarity Oddity

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Dennis Alwon

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Chapel Hill, NC
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Retired Electrical Contractor
These cheap testers can cause more problems sometimes than they are worth. A multimeter is better. A hot/neutral reversed condition with these cheap home inspector grade testers can show up with a hot ground, something you probably had with a "leaking" main. My main concern here would be to check the ground connections rather than a hot/neutral reversed condition since the problem "fixed" itself when the main was changed out.
Check out this site, then throw that tester away. http://blog.broadcastengineering.co...circuit-tester-a-valid-tester-or-night-light/

The poco came out and redid the connections because the neutral was almost broken in two. It changed nothing. Obviously the breaker was the issue since that was the only change that made a difference. Now I was not there but I drilled the guy pretty good.
 

Hv&Lv

Senior Member
Location
-
Occupation
Engineer/Technician
The poco came out and redid the connections because the neutral was almost broken in two. It changed nothing. Obviously the breaker was the issue since that was the only change that made a difference. Now I was not there but I drilled the guy pretty good.

I understand, but if the main breaker was shorting to ground (through the case bonding), and the ground wasn't connected to neutral but at one point in the system, and the connection to neutral is compromised in some way (maybe the POCO failed to brush connections if they tied neutral to ground at the top), the grounding system could be energized, giving you a hot/neutral reversed (or reverse polarity) reading on your tester. I would still recommend that the grounding connections be checked.
 

Open Neutral

Senior Member
Location
Inside the Beltway
Occupation
Engineer
A multimeter is better.

When I am in doubt; I test with a 60 watt lamp to an earth ground I create [Screwdriver in the ground, hopefully wet ground.] That establishes that hot is hot. Then I test hot to neutral while measuring neutral to my ground. And ditto hot to ground, but if GFI protected, that will trip.
 

Sierrasparky

Senior Member
Location
USA
Occupation
Electrician ,contractor
I don't think you are getting all the information.


you would know if the breaker was leaking as you would see carbon tracking.
I would bet on either the breaker tripped and was not reset on both legs, or the nuetral was gone and was repaired during troubleshoot. I would tear open the breaker to see of an issue.
 

Dennis Alwon

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Chapel Hill, NC
Occupation
Retired Electrical Contractor
I realize the condition was not truly reversed but something caused those cheap tester to read a reverse wiring. Again when the breaker was replaced the issue resolved. I just thought it was interesting esp. the fact that I have seen 4 Cutler Hammer mains go bad and they were all installed back 12-15 years ago. Yesterday someone on another forum reported the same problem- It was a CH. Not the reverse wiring but the breakers not turning off.-- That's 5 now.
 

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
I have had defective GFCI receptacles show reversed hot and neutral on those testers. Replaece defective GFCI and it reads normal again. If I remember right the neutral was not making when device was reset, don't recall if there was any load connected to the circuit but could see the return of a connected load making it read this way.

I would guess one pole of the breaker in the OP was bad maybe even had slight conductivity even when open for some reason causing some of this trouble. Making sure there was load on the circuit and turning off all 240 volt loads should have straightend out the readings in that case, and a low impedance meter would also help.
 

Joethemechanic

Senior Member
Location
Hazleton Pa
Occupation
Electro-Mechanical Technician. Industrial machinery
I don't even have one of those testers, But then again I never do residential, or really ever commercial unless it's my own work. I'm just a machinery guy. I use my Simpson 260 for just about everything lol.

Although I can see how that gadget would save lots of time if you had a lot of receptacles to test. And from seeing the home brewed electrical work in lots of houses, I can see why you would want to check them all.
 

K8MHZ

Senior Member
Location
Michigan. It's a beautiful peninsula, I've looked
Occupation
Electrician
I realize the condition was not truly reversed but something caused those cheap tester to read a reverse wiring. Again when the breaker was replaced the issue resolved. I just thought it was interesting esp. the fact that I have seen 4 Cutler Hammer mains go bad and they were all installed back 12-15 years ago. Yesterday someone on another forum reported the same problem- It was a CH. Not the reverse wiring but the breakers not turning off.-- That's 5 now.

I own 3 or 4 of those little testers. I am kind of a gadget freak. I know that they fail, they false and that they may not work at all. I take each reading with a grain of salt. They have their place, and so does tick tracer, an analog VOM, a DVOM and a solenoid tester, which is the bare minimum a residential troubleshooter should have in his voodoo box, and he should know the nuances and limitations of each type of tester.

All residential troubleshooting should start with the verification and use of a known good neutral. I have been in old houses with switched neutrals that would drive less seasoned troubleshooters crazy. In one house you stand in the middle of the foyer, three or four feet from any wall or light, and it would light up tick tracers. Also in that house, you could walk around with a tick tracer in your pocket and it would go off. Those are ghost houses.

The first thing you would do in a ghost house is verify a solid neutral. In the main panel, totally un-load one side and put 500 to 1000 watts across the other. Check to see that both 120 sides are equal or very close. Repeat with the load on the other leg. Once the neutral is verified, take a roll of wire, connect one end to the neutral bar and take the roll with you and use the other end for reference during testing. Of course, if you see an indication of a bad neutral in the main, it's time to address that and that may take a call to the POCO.

In a good ghost house you will get to see the limitations of testers. This house was so bad I got videos of it somewhere. In the foyer, a tick tracer would indicate without being anywhere near anything electrical. On the conductors, a DVOM would indicate the presence of AC voltages anywhere from 20 to 120 while a solenoid tester would show no AC voltage. It turned out that a neutral was bad in the basement, and a couple lights were neutral switched. One was a metal hanging chandelier type light in the foyer. It was acting like an antenna, causing tick tracers to indicate. After I found and fixed the open neutral in the basement, I found about a half dozen hot / neutral reversals and fixed them.

No more ghosts.

As for CH, I have heard some horror stories and had a bad personal experience with their non-main breakers (I had a 15 amp CH breaker hold 115 amps while we were measuring it. It wouldn't trip and the short causing the high current dropped the voltage in the house enough to dim all the lights) so I don't recommend that brand.
 
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Dennis Alwon

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Chapel Hill, NC
Occupation
Retired Electrical Contractor
These testers are a standard item for Home Inspectors. They plug into a 3 prong outlet and see the reverse wiring and they write it up. The whole house had 3 wire recep. feed thru gfci receptacles on 4 circuits. It is possible the tester was giving a reverse polarity when there was an open ground but the same was true with all the circuits off when pigtailed to the main wires. Now did he connect the egc on the recep. at the panel-- maybe not- I would have to ask. Since this is not first hand I cannot say 100% what went on. I know if it was me testing I would have gone right to the panel at some point and hooked it up with the correct setup- egc and all. He was getting ready to shut the main to test with the main off when he discovered the main would not shut off.

I am not sure what else happened but he assures me changing the breaker righted the readings on the tester.
 

K8MHZ

Senior Member
Location
Michigan. It's a beautiful peninsula, I've looked
Occupation
Electrician
These testers are a standard item for Home Inspectors. They plug into a 3 prong outlet and see the reverse wiring and they write it up. The whole house had 3 wire recep. feed thru gfci receptacles on 4 circuits. It is possible the tester was giving a reverse polarity when there was an open ground but the same was true with all the circuits off when pigtailed to the main wires. Now did he connect the egc on the recep. at the panel-- maybe not- I would have to ask. Since this is not first hand I cannot say 100% what went on. I know if it was me testing I would have gone right to the panel at some point and hooked it up with the correct setup- egc and all. He was getting ready to shut the main to test with the main off when he discovered the main would not shut off.

I am not sure what else happened but he assures me changing the breaker righted the readings on the tester.

I don't know what your relationship with this home is, but if I had anything to do with it I would go there and do my own testing with my own testers.

I have been doing electrical troubleshooting of various types for 35 years and there is something fishy with the story. The symptoms don't match the diagnosis, for one thing, and having a main hold closed is not just something to replace and walk away from. If the main would not shut off there should have been an autopsy. If cheap testers changed indications, higher tiered testing would be needed to verify.

What type of failure did the main have (from the autopsy) and what caused it? Was it water or corrosion (remember, we just had a thread about water getting into a breaker) or were the contacts welded together? If the contacts were welded closed, how did that happen?

And how does he know that his cheap tester is reading accurately? Just because the little lights say the circuit is OK, that may be an error. If no neutral wires were swapped, and the tester indicated they were, at least one reading is erroneous, which one is it?
 
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Dennis Alwon

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Staff member
Location
Chapel Hill, NC
Occupation
Retired Electrical Contractor
I don't know what your relationship with this home is, but if I had anything to do with it I would go there and do my own testing with my own testers.

I would love to but I have no idea where it is- I was talking to the EC at the supply house about it.
 

George Stolz

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Windsor, CO NEC: 2017
Occupation
Service Manager
These cheap testers can cause more problems sometimes than they are worth. A multimeter is better. A hot/neutral reversed condition with these cheap home inspector grade testers can show up with a hot ground, something you probably had with a "leaking" main. My main concern here would be to check the ground connections rather than a hot/neutral reversed condition since the problem "fixed" itself when the main was changed out.
Check out this site, then throw that tester away. http://blog.broadcastengineering.co...circuit-tester-a-valid-tester-or-night-light/

What tester is that guy recommending? :?

When I google "ground impedance tester I find ground rod testers...

I'll keep my plug tester, thanks. :happyno:
 

K8MHZ

Senior Member
Location
Michigan. It's a beautiful peninsula, I've looked
Occupation
Electrician
What tester is that guy recommending? :?

When I google "ground impedance tester I find ground rod testers...

I'll keep my plug tester, thanks. :happyno:

I don't think any recommendation was made. The article was about the shortcomings of the three light plug in testers.

Even IEEE 1100-1992 (IEEE Recommended Practice for Powering and Grounding Sensitive Electronic Equipment) provides a warning in its definition of a receptacle circuit tester:

“Receptacle circuit tester. A device that, by a pattern of lights, is intended to indicate wiring errors in receptacles. Receptacle circuit testers have some limitations. They may indicate incorrect wiring, but cannot be relied upon to indicate correct wiring.” (Italics added for emphasis.) Some manufacturers even admit the inaccuracy of the product, printing a disclaimer on the package to caution you of its limitations.

I still have them, and use them, but I also am well aware of the shortcomings and don't rely on them.
 

Hv&Lv

Senior Member
Location
-
Occupation
Engineer/Technician
I don't think any recommendation was made. The article was about the shortcomings of the three light plug in testers.



I still have them, and use them, but I also am well aware of the shortcomings and don't rely on them.




Even IEEE 1100-1992 (IEEE Recommended Practice for Powering and Grounding Sensitive Electronic Equipment) provides a warning in its definition of a receptacle circuit tester:

?Receptacle circuit tester. A device that, by a pattern of lights, is intended to indicate wiring errors in receptacles. Receptacle circuit testers have some limitations. They may indicate incorrect wiring, but cannot be relied upon to indicate correct wiring.? (Italics added for emphasis.) Some manufacturers even admit the inaccuracy of the product, printing a disclaimer on the package to caution you of its limitations.
I still have them, and use them, but I also am well aware of the shortcomings and don't rely on them.
I have one or two of these myself, I use them on a walkthrough, but don't depend on them completely. I won't change something just because the lights said to (anymore) :lol: I always recommend to those that depend on those receptacle testers to throw them away, learn to use a multimeter.
 
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