Single family home, 240 volts one one wire.

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Joethemechanic

Senior Member
Location
Hazleton Pa
Occupation
Electro-Mechanical Technician. Industrial machinery
I'm not sure how you got involved with this project. But if it's a church group or something, maybe somebody can take this old lady in until you get the electrical problems sorted out. That 240 volt to ground thing is really scary. I WOULD RATE THE ELECTROCUTION HAZARD AS BEING VERY HIGH
 

Strathead

Senior Member
Location
Ocala, Florida, USA
Occupation
Electrician/Estimator/Project Manager/Superintendent
There's nothing to click on. What link?

Go to the picture you are referring to and do one of a couple of things. Preferrably, right click on the picture, slectr save picture as, save to a convenient location, then insert the picture in your response post.

Or copy the URL at the top of the page and paste it in to your next post.
 

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
I Plugged in my extension cord, check the cord with my wiggy, hot to neutral 120v., hot to ground 120v. and neutral to ground 0v. Everything read fine. So when I took that extension cord over to the wire in question, that single wire to neutral and/or ground read 240v. I still don't know how you can get 240v. on one wire?:?

You need to verify that the neutral and ground in your reference are actually at / near ground potential. Measure to an earthed probe. Maybe the hot pin in this receptacle is actually grounded and the other two are connected to an ungrounded conductor somehow.
 

Little Bill

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Tennessee NEC:2017
Occupation
Semi-Retired Electrician
Sounds like someone hijacked a neutral to use as an EGC. Then you probably have a reversed polarity some where. If you're reading from hot wire to neutral or ground, you are not reading one wire if the problem I described exists, you are actually reading the other leg, thus the 240V. Better get to work!
 

zappy

Senior Member
Location
CA.
Sounds like someone hijacked a neutral to use as an EGC. Then you probably have a reversed polarity some where. If you're reading from hot wire to neutral or ground, you are not reading one wire if the problem I described exists, you are actually reading the other leg, thus the 240V. Better get to work!

It's sounds good, but it's going over my head! Can you or someone draw something so I can understand better? Thank you so much!
 

Joethemechanic

Senior Member
Location
Hazleton Pa
Occupation
Electro-Mechanical Technician. Industrial machinery
What he is saying is something I was considering too. Sometimes where there is no grounding conductor present at a box people put a jumper between the neutral and the ground. Most likely at a receptacle.

The reason they do this is usually to fool the tester an inspector uses to check receptacle to make sure the hot and neutral are not reversed and that the ground is connected. It fools the tester, but it makes a very dangerous situation.

Bill is saying that after someone made this bootleg ground, at some later date, someone swapped the hot and neutral somewhere upstream.

I'm just curious, does she have an electric range? What happens when you kill the power to the range/unplug it? Do some of the mystery voltages go away? older 3 wire range circuits can lead to some funky readings when you have an open neutral someplace. For some reason the range manufacturers were allowed to bootleg a neutral from the ground to run control circuitry in the range.
 

growler

Senior Member
Location
Atlanta,GA
If you're seeing 240 to GROUND you have more problems that an open neutral. You have to have a phase to ground short and her ground is really not a ground. It is most likely 120 volts away from ground. I'll bet somewhere the EGC is non-existent/open, or the N_G bond is not correct at the panel.

I agree that if you measure 240V to ground then it's not just an open neutral.


I would check those circuits at the panel and see what you read there and make sure there is a good neutral. If they read good at the panel there is an open some place.

I have seen this when the wiring in a junction box just sort of melted togather or a nice big old flying splice just sort of melted and carbonized.

In an old house you often find the wiring in lighting junction boxes that's all burned to a crisp because they used to use 100W lamps and no insulation between the fixtures and the junction box.

I would say you have burned wiring some place and the fact that it's AL just makes it worse.
That's the problem with AL, splices get loose and heat up ( chance of fire).

Until the problem is found the circuits should be turned off.
 

zappy

Senior Member
Location
CA.
You need to verify that the neutral and ground in your reference are actually at / near ground potential. Measure to an earthed probe. Maybe the hot pin in this receptacle is actually grounded and the other two are connected to an ungrounded conductor somehow.

But if the "hot slot" was really ground, and the neutral and ground slot was two different phases I would have known. But I guess if they were both on the same phase, I wouldn't have? But I used my plug tester too, and it read fine.
 

zappy

Senior Member
Location
CA.
Did you check anything at the panel?

Did you look inside the box you plugged your cord into?

Yes I took my wiggy and with one probe on the neutral bar and one probe checking each breaker. They all were working fine. The outlet, I didn't open.
 

Strathead

Senior Member
Location
Ocala, Florida, USA
Occupation
Electrician/Estimator/Project Manager/Superintendent
If you are actually still working on this problem, and it sounds like you are, I suggest this to start. Go back to the panel. Turn off EVERY breaker. Confirm that none of them are leaking with a Wiggy or a meter. Put away your plug tester and tick tester. Use a meter for accurate readings, because a difference of 10 volts or so can tell you a lot. Start testing for good voltages, and test the voltage from nuetral to ground every time, looking for anything more than 1-3 volts as a potential problem. Turn on one circuit at a time. That means turn off the others. If you see soemthing on one circuit not others, make sure that they are similar, ie. loads on or off. multiwire, etc. Then Look for multiwire circuits and turn them on as a unit and do the same. Remember what I said about a single electron running along the wire. If you find problems, I suggest you try to draw out the circuit from the utility in and trace the circuit (as one little electron) At this point, I personally would follow this to the end regardless of time, money loss. By this I mean, not that I would pay someone to do it, but I would spend my weekend there if I had to. Consider it school. You actually pay for that, and following this ot the end could teach you things you will never learn reading this forum or going to school.

I reiterate. Start from the beginning. Don't assume anything that you have already observed, such as 240 volts to ground was accurate. Confirm. Forst you NEED to determine if the problem is in the feeder or in a branch circuit. That will eliminate half your problem right there. One more thing. From a safety point anything you can do with resistnce instead of voltage is a good thing. Keep that in mind.
 

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
But if the "hot slot" was really ground, and the neutral and ground slot was two different phases I would have known. But I guess if they were both on the same phase, I wouldn't have? But I used my plug tester too, and it read fine.

Most likely what you have is "Hot slot" is actually connected to a grounded conductor, neutral and ground slots are connected to one phase - the other item being tested to the other phase.

Plug in tester will probably still read OK if neutral and ground are same potential and hot is 120 volts different. You need to test to a known ground - a probe in the earth is pretty good choice, grounded bus in the panel works as long as there is no problems with the service neutral.
 

zappy

Senior Member
Location
CA.
Most likely what you have is "Hot slot" is actually connected to a grounded conductor, neutral and ground slots are connected to one phase - the other item being tested to the other phase.

Plug in tester will probably still read OK if neutral and ground are same potential and hot is 120 volts different. You need to test to a known ground - a probe in the earth is pretty good choice, grounded bus in the panel works as long as there is no problems with the service neutral.

I should have POCO come out and check there side first. Then go from there. I'm going to try the ground rod in the earth, and check everything off of that.
 

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
I should have POCO come out and check there side first. Then go from there. I'm going to try the ground rod in the earth, and check everything off of that.

Why don't you check that you have what you are supposed to have at the service equipment before calling them?

Turn the main off - check your voltages with no load. If that is good connect a test load 120 volt from one line to neutral something like a heat gun or portable space heater loads things well enough to make a weak connection act up - check voltage with load running. Do same with other line to neutral. If all checks out POCO is not going to find anything either, and you look bad for crying wolf when there is not a problem. The problem(s) at this point are within premesis wiring.
 

Strathead

Senior Member
Location
Ocala, Florida, USA
Occupation
Electrician/Estimator/Project Manager/Superintendent
Why don't you check that you have what you are supposed to have at the service equipment before calling them?

Turn the main off - check your voltages with no load. If that is good connect a test load 120 volt from one line to neutral something like a heat gun or portable space heater loads things well enough to make a weak connection act up - check voltage with load running. Do same with other line to neutral. If all checks out POCO is not going to find anything either, and you look bad for crying wolf when there is not a problem. The problem(s) at this point are within premesis wiring.
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I concur. Please look at my earlier post. It suggests the same thing. It is probably not a P G and E problem.
 
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