Working for "wages" in Pennsylvania

[KVA]

I think their is big misconception that lots of guys out there undercut the pros just to get work is wrong. Their are lots of guys that just work like it's a job and have no interest in being a "business". They just get calls and go do the work simple as that. They work for "wages" just like they would for an employer. They have 1 truck and work alone and are very happy just earning a couple hundred+ a week. They get the customer to buy all the materials and don't stock a thing.

This is an epidemic in my area Bucks County, PA and Philly suburbs. Most places have no license requirements and to get insurance you don't have to prove your skills or experience they just take the money. I have 1.5 million liability with Erie insurance and they didn't give crap about anything just sign here, dot here and pay me have a nice day.

It's increasingly difficult to get decent rates in this area because of the lax rules in this state. We got tons of guys out there working at painter and carpet guy rates.

Yes their are people you will pay and want better quality. But how long until these quality customers start going for these dirt cheap prices? When these customers get bids and 5+ low ball bids come in they start thinking that's how much things cost. Then they spread the rumors around to their friends like "hey man I had an electrician do this for $300" It becomes a snowball effect.

Sorry just sort of a rant but would like to hear what others think.

 

[svh19044]

Yes their are people you will pay and want better quality. But how long until these quality customers start going for these dirt cheap prices? When these customers get bids and 5+ low ball bids come in they start thinking that's how much things cost. Then they spread the rumors around to their friends like "hey man I had an electrician do this for $300" It becomes a snowball effect.

Sorry just sort of a rant but would like to hear what others think.

We don't charge pennies, stay busy year round, and have many award winning projects. We usually are nowhere near the cheapest on multiple bid jobs, and we get the job anyway.

If you aren't selling your customer the value of your service, you might want to truly take up your "wages" and go work for someone that is. Not everyone understands what it takes to run a successful business.

I understand, times are tough for many contractors. But that doesn't mean that there is no customer base and that a customer isn't willing to pay for quality.

It is NOT an "epidemic" in Bucks Co. or the Philly suburbs. YOU are picking the client base which supports your theory.

 

[petersonra]

I don't see anything wrong with the guys that have figured out how to make a living in whatever way they choose. I would bet that with the majority of small business the owner's net is probably less than what they could make elsewhere. That is just the way it is in small businesses.

I know a fair number of control engineers who work for $50 an hour out of their basements and they are perfectly happy with that.

The biggest complaint I hear from guys doing it is that it is hard to get health insurance. Not a big deal if your wife works for someone who supplies it. And that is pretty common.

There is something to be said for enjoying life. Money is not everything to everyone.

Why would you want the hassle of having employees and all the pain government brings down on you for hiring someone when you can make as much just working yourself and not have that pain? Especially these days when you are lucky to break even as a contractor.

 

[KVA]

We don't charge pennies, stay busy year round, and have many award winning projects. We usually are nowhere near the cheapest on multiple bid jobs, and we get the job anyway.

If you aren't selling your customer the value of your service, you might want to truly take up your "wages" and go work for someone that is. Not everyone understands what it takes to run a successful business.

I understand, times are tough for many contractors. But that doesn't mean that there is no customer base and that a customer isn't willing to pay for quality.

It is NOT an "epidemic" in Bucks Co. or the Philly suburbs. YOU are picking the client base which supports your theory.

I'm picking the client? Nope. I take what comes in. The richest people are known to be the cheapest so YOUR THEORY of choosing your clients goes out the window. Cheapness does not discriminate on how much income one makes.

Also I have been working for reputable contractors in this area since the late 90's and heard the same thing from them about the EPIDEMIC in this area. If your doing great and can pick and choose and can hang up on people if you want great.

I can sell myself better than most in this area and I'll put money on it. The reason being is I have a background in customer service of close to 5 year before I got into the trades. I was put in management roles as early as 19. So I know how to say what people want to hear and make them happy.

You see Lowry Electric everywhere with brand new fully wrapped trucks one of the largest companies in the area. The reason they are big because they tie in other business like plumbing and hvac. I guarantee they would not be that large just doing electric in this area. I worked for another really large outfit years ago named Rice electric they had many divisions even a traffic signal department. guess where they are now? Gone.

Like I said when the market gets bombarded with guys working for peanuts that's what the market pays. Your telling me if someone gets bids and 8 of them are low and 2 are way higher most will go with the higher?

 

[KVA]

I don't see anything wrong with the guys that have figured out how to make a living in whatever way they choose. I would bet that with the majority of small business the owner's net is probably less than what they could make elsewhere. That is just the way it is in small businesses.

I know a fair number of control engineers who work for $50 an hour out of their basements and they are perfectly happy with that.

The biggest complaint I hear from guys doing it is that it is hard to get health insurance. Not a big deal if your wife works for someone who supplies it. And that is pretty common.

There is something to be said for enjoying life. Money is not everything to everyone.

Why would you want the hassle of having employees and all the pain government brings down on you for hiring someone when you can make as much just working yourself and not have that pain? Especially these days when you are lucky to break even as a contractor.

That's what I'm saying. Lots of "contractors" in this area are happy just making what they would at a job.

Not me though if I just wanted to make wages i would work for someone else. I would let someone else worry about finding work all the time and put in my 40 and go home. But I'm not an employee type person I've always been the lead guy since even my late teens. Most employeers I've had trusted me quick and advanced me quick. I was always at work before the bosses roughly 15 minutes early while the rest of the employees arrived at 3 mins before or right on time.

Your right money is not everything. To me independence, controlling my own destiny, and doing things my way are what matters most and that's why I got into business.

 

[svh19044]

Speaking specifically of your demeanor on this site, you have got to be pretty damn depressing to be around. :lol:

I'm picking the client? Nope. I take what comes in. The richest people are known to be the cheapest so YOUR THEORY of choosing your clients goes out the window. Cheapness does not discriminate on how much income one makes.

Have money> no money
You're right, cheapness doesn't discriminate.

Also I have been working for reputable contractors in this area since the late 90's and heard the same thing from them about the EPIDEMIC in this area. If your doing great and can pick and choose and can hang up on people if you want great.

It is not an "EPIDEMIC" in our area. There are the same fly by nighters, work for free/no profit people around the country. Licensing or not, it doesn't matter.

I can sell myself better than most in this area and I'll put money on it. The reason being is I have a background in customer service of close to 5 year before I got into the trades. I was put in management roles as early as 19. So I know how to say what people want to hear and make them happy.

With good selling skills and a different client base, you wouldn't have the issues that you continuously post about. Don't you advertise or take jobs from CL?

You see Lowry Electric everywhere with brand new fully wrapped trucks one of the largest companies in the area. The reason they are big because they tie in other business like plumbing and hvac. I guarantee they would not be that large just doing electric in this area. I worked for another really large outfit years ago named Rice electric they had many divisions even a traffic signal department. guess where they are now? Gone.

Lowry got hit hard about 5 years ago, maybe a bit more. He laid off a bunch of guys, and came back with HVAC. I don't know exactly how he is doing now, but he is definitely keeping guys busy. He takes the yellow book advertising method, big money in ads=return. Spend it to make it. There is a LOT of overhead in his operation to keep it running. It's a service call oriented company, not a normal residential electrical contractor.

Like I said when the market gets bombarded with guys working for peanuts that's what the market pays. Your telling me if someone gets bids and 8 of them are low and 2 are way higher most will go with the higher?

There is no way to answer that question. It's on a customer/contractor basis.

Do what you have to do to make some money, there is nothing wrong with accepting less. But don't be upset about the situation and blame it on others. That's all that I'm trying to relay to you.

 

[KVA]

Speaking specifically of your demeanor on this site, you have got to be pretty damn depressing to be around. :lol:

Funny I rarely post on here...but your demeanor sounds "award winning" to me:thumbsup:

 

[realolman]

That's what I'm saying. Lots of "contractors" in this area are happy just making what they would at a job.

Not me though if I just wanted to make wages i would work for someone else. I would let someone else worry about finding work all the time and put in my 40 and go home. But I'm not an employee type person I've always been the lead guy since even my late teens. Most employeers I've had trusted me quick and advanced me quick. I was always at work before the bosses roughly 15 minutes early while the rest of the employees arrived at 3 mins before or right on time.

Your right money is not everything. To me independence, controlling my own destiny, and doing things my way are what matters most and that's why I got into business.

So do that.

That doesn't seem to be what your thread is about....

Sounds to me like you want some sort of law that won't allow anyone to charge less than you; while you talk about independence ,controlling your own destiny, and doing things your way.

My B.S. detector just went off.

 

[KVA]

Speaking specifically of your demeanor on this site, you have got to be pretty damn depressing to be around. :lol:



Have money> no money
You're right, cheapness doesn't discriminate.



It is not an "EPIDEMIC" in our area. There are the same fly by nighters, work for free/no profit people around the country. Licensing or not, it doesn't matter.



With good selling skills and a different client base, you wouldn't have the issues that you continuously post about. Don't you advertise or take jobs from CL?



Lowry got hit hard about 5 years ago, maybe a bit more. He laid off a bunch of guys, and came back with HVAC. I don't know exactly how he is doing now, but he is definitely keeping guys busy. He takes the yellow book advertising method, big money in ads=return. Spend it to make it. There is a LOT of overhead in his operation to keep it running. It's a service call oriented company, not a normal residential electrical contractor.



There is no way to answer that question. It's on a customer/contractor basis.

Do what you have to do to make some money, there is nothing wrong with accepting less. But don't be upset about the situation and blame it on others. That's all that I'm trying to relay to you.

You make lots of assumptions...but just like your business model you gotta fake it to make it:thumbsup:

 

[KVA]

So do that.

That doesn't seem to be what your thread is about....

Sounds to me like you want some sort of law that won't allow anyone to charge less than you; while you talk about independence ,controlling your own destiny, and doing things your way.

My B.S. detector just went off.

Yeah my detector is starting to go off too with the negative argumentative responses. Nope no law just a statewide license requirement like most other states. That would eliminate most of the "contractors" working for $15 an hour in this area.

Seems like I hit a nerve on some guys here working for peanuts sorry guys:lol:

 

[realolman]

. Nope no law just a statewide license requirement like most other states.

how is that not a law?

 

[svh19044]

Yeah my detector is starting to go off too with the negative argumentative responses. Nope no law just a statewide license requirement like most other states. That would eliminate most of the "contractors" working for $15 an hour in this area.

Seems like I hit a nerve on some guys here working for peanuts sorry guys:lol:

Just as the statewide business licensing requirements didn't "eliminate most of the contractors working for $15 an hour in this area", neither will statewide electrical licensing.

It would be "required by law". Otherwise, it's not really much of a requirement at all, is it? It's more so a suggestion, which REALLY won't help with the issue's that you are having within your client base.

A fine example is the city of Philadelphia. License required. How is that working out to cut down on the guy charging $15/hour with NO LICENSE? Actually, $15/hour is a bit generous.

 

[KVA]

Just as the statewide business licensing requirements didn't "eliminate most of the contractors working for $15 an hour in this area", neither will statewide electrical licensing.

It would be "required by law". Otherwise, it's not really much of a requirement at all, is it? It's more so a suggestion, which REALLY won't help with the issue's that you are having within your client base.

A fine example is the city of Philadelphia. License required. How is that working out to cut down on the guy charging $15/hour with NO LICENSE? Actually, $15/hour is a bit generous.

The statewide "business license" that your talking about is not a license at all. It's a simple registration required by the state that puts you in a database for homeowners to research your company for any liens etc.. It's no way shape or form a business license.

All they need is proof of insurance and pay $50 to get that.

 

[KVA]

Just as the statewide business licensing requirements didn't "eliminate most of the contractors working for $15 an hour in this area", neither will statewide electrical licensing.

It would be "required by law". Otherwise, it's not really much of a requirement at all, is it? It's more so a suggestion, which REALLY won't help with the issue's that you are having within your client base.

A fine example is the city of Philadelphia. License required. How is that working out to cut down on the guy charging $15/hour with NO LICENSE? Actually, $15/hour is a bit generous.

Obviously a statewide license requirement won't knock all these guys out but it's definitely WAY better than a free for all. Basically anyone with a toolbox is an "electrician" in this area.

 

[Fulthrotl]

Obviously a statewide license requirement won't knock all these guys out but it's definitely WAY better than a free for all. Basically anyone with a toolbox is an "electrician" in this area.

i'm gonna share something with ya.... a few years ago, calif.
put in place (driven by union pressure) a license for journeymen
with a sub tier for residential wiremen.

you can't hire someone as a sparky without one. you can't work
as a sparky without one.

nothing changed. the people who could get the cert, did so.
the under the radar folks doing whatever didn't, 'cause they
were doing stuff for unlicensed people in the first place.

i have a method of planning my income that isn't in the biz
development manuals. it costs about a dollar and a half, and
requires a dry erase marker, and absence of fear.

the first is easy, the second not so much.

my goal is 8,000 taxable per month. that means by the end of may,
i need to show a taxable of $40,000. i just had a $10k hit on my van
rebuild, but i should still hit that mark.

we will see.... i'm still bidding, and still getting the bids... some of
them are on hold pending customer funding, but none of them are
going to other people.

the cash flow may be lumpy, but i fully expect $100k net taxable this
year on my little one man band.

the secret? "it is done unto you, as you believe".

god help me the day i believe that "they" can take anything from me.
i have just made them all powerful... and they aren't.

 

[Sparky555]

Our best clients don't get other bids. Competitive bidding is not a viable business proposition over the long term.

 

[iwire]

Competitive bidding is not a viable business proposition over the long term.

I think you would find many successful people that would disagree with that.

 

[Len]

customerw

customerw

I'm picking the client? Nope. I take what comes in. The richest people are known to be the cheapest so YOUR THEORY of choosing your clients goes out the window. Cheapness does not discriminate on how much income one makes.

Also I have been working for reputable contractors in this area since the late 90's and heard the same thing from them about the EPIDEMIC in this area. If your doing great and can pick and choose and can hang up on people if you want great.

I can sell myself better than most in this area and I'll put money on it. The reason being is I have a background in customer service of close to 5 year before I got into the trades. I was put in management roles as early as 19. So I know how to say what people want to hear and make them happy.

You see Lowry Electric everywhere with brand new fully wrapped trucks one of the largest companies in the area. The reason they are big because they tie in other business like plumbing and hvac. I guarantee they would not be that large just doing electric in this area. I worked for another really large outfit years ago named Rice electric they had many divisions even a traffic signal department. guess where they are now? Gone.

Like I said when the market gets bombarded with guys working for peanuts that's what the market pays. Your telling me if someone gets bids and 8 of them are low and 2 are way higher most will go with the higher?

Lowery is big because he spends about 100k a month on advertising.... No other reason

 

[Sparky555]

I think you would find many successful people that would disagree with that.

In residential service the most successful companies are getting over $200/hour. The many successful people that might disagree with that are not in residential service. Low bidders in residential service usually can't calculate overhead, have no health plan, no retirement and last less than two years.

 

[MikeyRob]

I live in the philly suburbs and I'm sure what I charge is exactly what your complaining about. I am a one man shop, but I also have a license, insurance, work van, tools, and supply all the material for all jobs. I am as legitimate as the next EC in the area. I charge what I consider to be a fair rate. I am young and hard working and am trying to build a growing client base. This happens when I go do a job for a great price and do a great job. Then Joe HomeOwner wants to brag about his electrician who is the best. Its been working for me and I make A LOT more money then when I was working for electrical contractors in the area. To me its a win-win. Some times I price things to low and learn the hard way about how much time I expect a job to take, but I continually learn from my mistakes and keep striving to be the best contractor and business man I can be. I love it, I love working for myself and I hope that I can grow into a business where I have multiple employees and am doing huge work, but for now I take what I can get, and work as honest and fair as I can.

P.S. This also might be less of a problem if most contractors in the area would pay employees at a descent rate. When my old company got stiffed a lot of money we all got laid off. I was a licensed guy who was a mechanic/foreman for a few years and couldn't find anyone willing to start at more than 13-15/hr range. I know its an employers market but still.