Working for "wages" in Pennsylvania

[svh19044]

P.S. This also might be less of a problem if most contractors in the area would pay employees at a descent rate. When my old company got stiffed a lot of money we all got laid off. I was a licensed guy who was a mechanic/foreman for a few years and couldn't find anyone willing to start at more than 13-15/hr range. I know its an employers market but still.

So while you're working for $15/20/30 an hour (or whatever it comes out to with flat rate), you expect an employee to be paid more or as much, all while you are covering his healthcare, workers comp, unemployment, van maintenance, other overhead, on top of your time?

You would think that now that you are on your own, you would realize that it's not quite as easy as you make it out to be to just pay employee's "more" (not to imply that depending on skill/responsibility, $15 isn't low). Your prices would most certainly need to go up to support that, but that's not really the point you were making anyway.

There is nothing wrong with giving a low price for a job, but it's not a good long term business plan in having a profitable "business".

This is really a simple way to figure out how much you should be charging...
http://www.masterplumbers.com/utilities/costcalc/

 

[johncrow33]

some guys here working for peanuts sorry guys.....ok captain electric

some guys here working for peanuts sorry guys.....ok captain electric

Yeah my detector is starting to go off too with the negative argumentative responses. Nope no law just a statewide license requirement like most other states. That would eliminate most of the "contractors" working for $15 an hour in this area.

Seems like I hit a nerve on some guys here working for peanuts sorry guys:lol:

What you need to do is get a job like i landed. It may turn off your detector.....I work for the state of xxxxx - general services div.-real estate div. They pay us $63.36 an hour to do service work for all state bldgs - dmv - courts- and some home rentals etc ...The best part is we work 9 months and get a 3 month vacation , and we collect unemployment for the 3 months we are off. Although i don't think you would , how do you say it , fit in with the rest of the happier than hell crew. also we set our own schedules , they just give us the work orders and we dont see our super until the next day at 7am...But hopefully things will pick up for you , but i wouldnt hold your breath if i were you....jc :dunce:

 

[Fulthrotl]

What you need to do is get a job like i landed. :dunce:

glendale, calif.
glendale, wisconsin.
glendale, utah.
glendale, arizona

mid 60's an hour? i'm guessing california.
prevailing wage would put it about there.

thanks for the job search tip... anyone
else finding out which state, post it here.

i'll check on california, and post any information
i find here.

by the way, as this is your second post here,
you may discover that we share information
pretty freely here, as we are distributed all
over the country, and therefore aren't in
competition with each other, and the collaboration
helps all of us.

 

[satcom]

In parts of PA you will find plenty of guys doing electrical work for $15 an hour, they will also cut your lawn, paint your house and do just about anything when they are not underground at their full time job. They are the guys that help build this country and make it possible for everyone else to raise their boat, and now we are thanking them by killing their jobs, with a war on coal, so stand by and if the green nuts have their way the same electricians working for $15 will soon cost $5 to hire, but look at the good news there will be more electricians working at $5 more jobs!

 

[jaylectricity]

I think their is big misconception that lots of guys out there undercut the pros just to get work is wrong. Their are lots of guys that just work like it's a job and have no interest in being a "business". They just get calls and go do the work simple as that. They work for "wages" just like they would for an employer.

I do similar to that, in that I don't really operate a business. I have pretty low overhead, I recently did a break-even on 20 billable hours per week and only came up with $60 an hour, and that would allow me to pay myself $30 per hour (edit to add: that's for a 40 hour workweek), pay the taxes, pay towards a new truck (I own mine outright), all the license renewal fees (professional and vehicle), insurance for the truck and the business, all the little things like paper invoices or whatever and still have enough to spend $800 on advertising every month which I don't do any advertising at all right now.

I know how I'm viewed by some people on this website because of this, and it's partly true. I'm not a big time professional or anything. I usually just cater to the customer. If the customer wants me to slap something together for cheap, that's what I do. If I need to encourage them to spend the money on better quality installation, I'll try that. If I walk into a million dollar home and they want visible electrical work done, they pay a higher price because I'll put more care into the job to avoid unnecessary holes that need painting, or to make sure a new plug look like it's always been there, or whatever.

 

[Sparky555]

jaylectricity:

I'm not clear from your post. You calculate billing 20 hours per week of a 40 hour week (50% efficiency). Are you billing the customer $60/hour or $120/hour?

 

[jaylectricity]

jaylectricity:

I'm not clear from your post. You calculate billing 20 hours per week of a 40 hour week (50% efficiency). Are you billing the customer $60/hour or $120/hour?

I looked at the .txt file again (should have looked before posting, I suppose). It was 25 billable hours per week, and I was paying myself for roughly 33 hours per week. $4000 per month before taxes. $60 per hour (unless I give them a flat rate).

 

[kwired]

The statewide "business license" that your talking about is not a license at all. It's a simple registration required by the state that puts you in a database for homeowners to research your company for any liens etc.. It's no way shape or form a business license.

All they need is proof of insurance and pay $50 to get that.

I think their is big misconception that lots of guys out there undercut the pros just to get work is wrong. Their are lots of guys that just work like it's a job and have no interest in being a "business". They just get calls and go do the work simple as that. They work for "wages" just like they would for an employer. They have 1 truck and work alone and are very happy just earning a couple hundred+ a week. They get the customer to buy all the materials and don't stock a thing.

This is an epidemic in my area Bucks County, PA and Philly suburbs. Most places have no license requirements and to get insurance you don't have to prove your skills or experience they just take the money. I have 1.5 million liability with Erie insurance and they didn't give crap about anything just sign here, dot here and pay me have a nice day.

It's increasingly difficult to get decent rates in this area because of the lax rules in this state. We got tons of guys out there working at painter and carpet guy rates.

Yes their are people you will pay and want better quality. But how long until these quality customers start going for these dirt cheap prices? When these customers get bids and 5+ low ball bids come in they start thinking that's how much things cost. Then they spread the rumors around to their friends like "hey man I had an electrician do this for $300" It becomes a snowball effect.

Sorry just sort of a rant but would like to hear what others think.

So what kind of support do these guys offer their so called "clients" that they have done work for?

If you purchase liability insurance, are you not treating yourself as a business? If you are just an employee then the client must be the employer.

Does the client (employer) assume all liability? When they have reason to believe your wiring was the cause for their fire they won't care how cheap you may have been they are going to sue you.

Does the client (employer) collect payroll taxes, and provide workers compensation? If not they are not your employer - you are self employed and have contracted with them. Even if no written contract is in place, you are still a contractor, or other entity providing a service to the client.

If licenses are required to do what it is you do then that is just a hurdle. Even hair stylists need licensing in most places. There are still people that do hair styling without a license. They usually only do work for close friends or relatives and do not have a shop that is publicly noticeable or do any advertising. Illegal? Possibly. Not much different than an electrician that does side work.

This same type of activity happens in more than just the electrical trade.

There are people that go to Mexico to have dental work done because it costs less than it does by properly licensed professionals here in US. Same people would not go to Mexico if it was easy to find someone closer on Craigslist, but that will not happen nearly as easily as finding someone that may do electrical work. The work may or may not be just as good as they can find in the US.

Any trade or profession is going to have those that are recoginzed as being professionals and usually charge a professional rate. They will also have those that do so called side work that may be really cheap. Some may do good work some may not. There is also small businesses that do not have as much overhead costs and do not need to charge as much for their services and can still make a reasonable income. Those same small businesses do not have the resources to take on just any project either.

If someone wants to lowball me to hang a ceiling fan in some old house - that is just fine with me. I have other repeat clients with more profitable projects I would rather work for. You have to have repeat clients or when times get hard you have little or no work. Repeat clients meaning businesses or small industries that will always have something going on that requires things from you. But don't get all clients in same industry, because if times get hard for that particular industry they are going to be hard for you also.

 

[Strife]

There already is a a law for that, it's just not enforced or hard to enforced.

Between the taxes, fees, licenses, more fees, liability insurance, more fees, continuous education, workers comp, commercial insurance on autos, unemployement, and many other things I can't even remember, the first 7-8 dollars I charge are gone. So how exactly can I charge $ 20 and hr? How can I compete with the unlicensed that will just splie 3 pieces of 6' of rommex (that he took from me), without boxes, to wire a light for 50 bucks with 9 wire nuts that he took from me also? How can I compete with someone that will just put a 30A breaker(that he took from me) on a #14 wire and charge 50 bucks? Even if I did that(instead of adding the proper circuits), I still couldn't make the money they make, cause I have to pay for the breaker.
I never go to estimate resi jobs, I tell them the rates and if they like it I go and do it.
I have no problem competing with legal contractors, but I can not compete with illegal ones, and we already have a law, it's just not(or can not be) enforced.

So do that.

That doesn't seem to be what your thread is about....

Sounds to me like you want some sort of law that won't allow anyone to charge less than you; while you talk about independence ,controlling your own destiny, and doing things your way.

My B.S. detector just went off.

 

[roger]

Strife, just a suggestion, it would make your posts easier to understand if your reply is under the quote you are using.

Roger

 

[petersonra]

If you purchase liability insurance, are you not treating yourself as a business? If you are just an employee then the client must be the employer.

The liability insurer generally just does not care about such things as employee-employer relationships. Its is entirely about what they perceive their expsoure to be.

For example, there are PEs who work for corporations that carry their own liability insurance seperate from the company's insurance.

You have to remember, liability insurance is mostly about having someone else to pay the legal bills so the cost of a legal defense does not break you or force you to settle.