When is a "sunroom" - a "sunroom"?

[ngd4130]

NEC Article 210.12(A) states arc-fault circuit-interrupter protection for all 120-volt, single phase, 15- and 20- ampere branch circuits. It lists "sunrooms" as one of the protected areas. So if this so called "sunroom" is actually a three-season addition on the back of the house where the exterior wall is not altered and the sliding patio door stays in tact, should this room still be protected by arc-fault or should it be protected by ground-fault and treated more like a garage or an accessory structure?
FYI - The building code defines a "sunroom" as a room with 40% glazing.
:huh:

 

[Hendrix]

The building code defines a "sunroom" as a room with 40% glazing.
:huh:

That's your answer. Whatever it means.

 

[north star]

* * *

The answer is that "that" room IS a sunroom and must
have arc fault protection, not GFCI!.......What edition
of the NEC are you referencing?.......Did you mean
Article 210.12(B) from the `08 NEC?

* * *

 

[ngd4130]

* * *

The answer is that "that" room IS a sunroom and must
have arc fault protection, not GFCI!.......What edition
of the NEC are you referencing?.......Did you mean
Article 210.12(B) from the `08 NEC?

* * *

so if you have a accessory structure in your rear yard & you decide to enclose it with glass panels. Does this qualify it as a "sunroom"?

 

[ngd4130]

That's your answer. Whatever it means.

My point is how far to you take the definition of "sunroom"?
In the northern climates typically the exterior wall is not affected.
Another example: if someone had a gazebo in their rear yard & they decided to enclose it with glass, would you call this a "sunroom" & require arc-fault when previously it had gfci?
In northern climates, three-season rooms are very popular. Often they are submitted as a "sunroom", but they still sit on a slab with factory built walls & ceilings attached to the exterior of the house.
How does this qualify to require arc-fault as opposed to GFCI?
:?

 

[north star]

$ $

The "attached" sunroom is not considered to be an Accessory type structure,
because it is attached to the main Residence, nor is it considered an outdoors
location [ refer to Section E3802.2 in the `06 IRC ].

You are looking in the IRC, ...yes?

$ $

 

[kwired]

If it is to be considered a living space then it is a living room, sun room or similar room as noted in 210.12(B). Not only is AFCI required but the 6-12 receptacle spacing rule of 210.52 (A) applies.

If it is not to be considered a living space then it is a porch, deck, etc. as mentioned in 210.52(E)(3). Minimum of one receptacle is required and GFCI protection is required.

Your AHJ may determine if it is a living space or a porch, NEC does not really tell us which it is.

I would also consider calling an enclosed gazebo to be a 210.52 (A) area if it is used like one. Why does a living room have to be attached to the main structure?

Another one I run into sometimes is bunk houses at hunting cabins. I consider them to be no different than a bedroom - either as a dwelling or guest room bedroom - pick your poision - the rules are pretty much the same for either.

 

[ngd4130]

If it is to be considered a living space then it is a living room, sun room or similar room as noted in 210.12(B). Not only is AFCI required but the 6-12 receptacle spacing rule of 210.52 (A) applies.

If it is not to be considered a living space then it is a porch, deck, etc. as mentioned in 210.52(E)(3). Minimum of one receptacle is required and GFCI protection is required.

Your AHJ may determine if it is a living space or a porch, NEC does not really tell us which it is.

Kwired,
Seeing that you are from Nebraska and three-season rooms are probably typical, how does your AHJ determine a living space or a porch? Again, if it was an existing slab on the rear of the main structure and the contractor added three pre-fabbed walls and a pre-fabbed roof to the existing exterior wall and maintained the existing exterior envelope, would this be living space??

:?

 

[ngd4130]

$ $

The "attached" sunroom is not considered to be an Accessory type structure,
because it is attached to the main Residence, nor is it considered an outdoors
location [ refer to Section E3802.2 in the `06 IRC ].

You are looking in the IRC, ...yes?

$ $

I have been referring to the NEC 2008 which is still being enforced in Ohio for residential. My question results from conditioned space (arc-fault) verus unconditioned space (gfci).

 

[kwired]

If it is to be considered a living space then it is a living room, sun room or similar room as noted in 210.12(B). Not only is AFCI required but the 6-12 receptacle spacing rule of 210.52 (A) applies.

If it is not to be considered a living space then it is a porch, deck, etc. as mentioned in 210.52(E)(3). Minimum of one receptacle is required and GFCI protection is required.

Your AHJ may determine if it is a living space or a porch, NEC does not really tell us which it is.

Kwired,
Seeing that you are from Nebraska and three-season rooms are probably typical, how does your AHJ determine a living space or a porch? Again, if it was an existing slab on the rear of the main structure and the contractor added three pre-fabbed walls and a pre-fabbed roof to the existing exterior wall and maintained the existing exterior envelope, would this be living space??

:?

I really don't know how AHJ would treat this space. At very least I would gues they would want 6-12 spacing rules to be met or it will be GFCI protected receptacles. Of course now with AFCI requirements that will also need to happen if the 6-12 rules apply. Really this response is based on how things would have been a few years ago before they brought in AFCI's (Nebraska amended AFCI's out of the code until late in the time period that they were still enforcing 2005 NEC which was sometime mid to late 2009)

I have only worked on one "three seasons room" that I can recall. It did not require permit or inspection. Most residential work does not unless installing a new service here.

 

[kbsparky]

"Living space" is usually determined by whether the room has HVAC installed in it. Does it have heating/air conditioning so it can be used year-round?

If not, then it's not a "habitable room" and should be considered a "porch" or "sun-porch" and wired as such.

 

[cowboyjwc]

We used to consider a sunroom to be an outdoor space or simply an enclosed patio and required GFCI protection because there was no definition. Now you have something that says that a "sunroom" requires AFCI protection.

For it to be considered habitable per the building code, it would require that it be heated and have a vapor barrier which most don't.

So in talking to our building official, we're still considering it a covered patio.

Edit: (I couldn't get to page two and after I posted I saw kbsparky's post)

 

[97catintenn]

We used to consider a sunroom to be an outdoor space or simply an enclosed patio and required GFCI protection because there was no definition. Now you have something that says that a "sunroom" requires AFCI protection.

For it to be considered habitable per the building code, it would require that it be heated and have a vapor barrier which most don't.

So in talking to our building official, we're still considering it a covered patio.

Edit: (I couldn't get to page two and after I posted I saw kbsparky's post)

And the next question is, if started as a deck and was closed in, do I need a continuous footer and block foundation? but if it's just a covered porch, then my 4x4 posts set 7' apart will be just fine...unless I run a duct. Then it changes.

 

[north star]

+......+......+

From kbsparky:

"Living space" is usually determined by whether the room has HVAC installed in it........Does it
have heating/air conditioning so it can be used year-round?.........If not, then it's not a
"habitable room" and should be considered a "porch" or "sun-porch" and wired as such."

Air conditioning is not required in habitable spaces, but heating is,
in areas with a Winter Design temperature below 60 degrees Farenheit.
Refer to Section R303.8, `06 IRC.

+......+......+

 

[kwired]

+......+......+

From kbsparky:
Air conditioning is not required in habitable spaces, but heating is,
in areas with a Winter Design temperature below 60 degrees Farenheit.
Refer to Section R303.8, `06 IRC.

+......+......+

I can agree that may help determine if this particular area is considered living space.

Consider the fact that IRC is not adopted everywhere.

Not all spaces that have heating or cooling are habitable rooms.

I still think either meet 210.52 (A) spacing requirements or use GFCI protection for whatever you do have is a pretty fair way of dealing with it. Until AFCI requirements were introduced it was easier to approach it this way, now you need to also determine if this is an area that was intended to apply AFCI. If it is considered a living room or sun room it definately is an AFCI application, if it is considered a porch then it is not. If future codes expand the AFCI requirements this may not be an issue for this particular space.

 

[Dennis Alwon]

This is simple. If the plans call it a sunroom then you have no choice but to afci. I don't see needing gfci if it is enclosed and can be open. Obviously any room can have doors and windows open.

 

[ngd4130]

Another one I run into sometimes is bunk houses at hunting cabins. I consider them to be no different than a bedroom - either as a dwelling or guest room bedroom - pick your poision - the rules are pretty much the same for either.

I agree. So maybe it should be spelled out, especially in the northern climates, that if the area is conditioned it should be considered arc-fault and if it is unconditioned it should be considered gfci. comments?

 

[ngd4130]

This is simple. If the plans call it a sunroom then you have no choice but to afci. I don't see needing gfci if it is enclosed and can be open. Obviously any room can have doors and windows open.

So would you say it is up to the AHJ to call out what the room is or would it be the submitter to call out what the room is?? And if the AHJ decided it did not qualify as a sunroom...

 

[ngd4130]

And the next question is, if started as a deck and was closed in, do I need a continuous footer and block foundation? but if it's just a covered porch, then my 4x4 posts set 7' apart will be just fine...unless I run a duct. Then it changes.

I believe the continuous footer & block does not necessarily apply. It is more about insulation & heat. Habitable spaces are allowed to be built on posts; just look at low laying areas in flood zones or along the N.C. coast.

 

[kwired]

I agree. So maybe it should be spelled out, especially in the northern climates, that if the area is conditioned it should be considered arc-fault and if it is unconditioned it should be considered gfci. comments?

More than just AFCI/GFCI comes to play here, you also have 210.52(A) spacing requirements if it is considered a living room, sun room, etc.