product quality/ substitution

[nhfire77]

One of my larger customers has specific part numbers required for common repair parts. We are allowed to substitute any part as long as it is of equal or greater quality (determined by us, never been told no to a higher priced item). Some of their parts are the lowest quality and lead to repeat service calls over time for failure. I always spec out better materials that do not fail so quick. I love to do it right every time. The business side of me is screaming: put in the crap and get paid to change it out again in two years. No one is complaining either way, and additional service calls will not upset them in any way (I've experimented)

How do you feel about it? I will start a poll as well.

 

[renosteinke]

Might be worth a chat with the customer, to learn who made the list and whattheir sources were. Then, ask them what theyreally want.

In my current industrial setting, I see it all the time: project managers drawing up specifications and price lists by thumbing through the Grainger catalog. They have no idea what's available, or what really matters to them. Nor have they any idea what normal trade practices are; often some guy with a community college degree in 'electronics technology' is asked to supervise the electricians.

Specific example: This place specifies RMC, simply because they never heard of IMC. All they really know is that EMT won't work.

 

[Electric-Light]

Can you quote the wording of the contract?

"quality" is hard to quantify, but if you explain to them that the costlier parts you specify will last longer and they actually do, you'll earn their trust that you're actually looking after their interest.

 

[nhfire77]

They are quite aware of the quality and the options available. We are their subs, they benefit from additional trips. They attempt to provide the cheapest parts possible to reduce costs per call, but total service required isn't a concern, or it appears.

 

[nhfire77]

Can you quote the wording of the contract?

"quality" is hard to quantify, but if you explain to them that the costlier parts you specify will last longer and they actually do, you'll earn their trust that you're actually looking after their interest.

from the contract: "is of equal or better quality" I know that's arbitrary, but its never been an issue.

 

[petersonra]

I have been around the electrical business on the outskirts for 30 some years now. as best I can tell, there is no where near the difference in length of service between different brands of parts that are perceived as high quality versus lower quality as some people like to claim.

I do not believe in anecdotal reports. They are unreliable and often complete faulty in their conclusions due to the perception by some that higher cost products are higher quality.

I used to hear this about IEC contactors and terminal strips. It turned out to be completely false. Properly selected IEC stuff lasts just as long as properly selected NEMA stuff does.

I have used every brand of MCC commonly seen in the USA. As best I can, tell there just is not much difference in quality. There are slightly different features, but the quality of different brands of MCCs is very similar.

Same with PLCs and instrumentation. There just is not a lot of difference IME.

So to me, selection based on price is not all that bad of a thing. There are some exceptions, but they are not as common as you might think. And there are good reasons to pay more to standardize, especially if you need a high level of uptime.

 

[jim dungar]

Different parts may mean 'documentation' is no longer up to date.

Some manufacturers use any excuse possible to prevent accepting any blame (i.e. 'of course the wheels fell off your ABC car, you put a XYZ battery into it').

 

[nhfire77]

I agree there is very little difference in hardware life span such as terminal strips. (again a generalized statement), but some items such as snap switches, receptacles and consumables such as batteries seem to have quite a varied lifetime. These simple items are which I refer to.

 

[readydave8]

A customer was having trouble with motion sensors, didn't seem to last very long, I said "I'll fix that" so instead of replacing with $20 Lowe's put in $75 Hubbel. Hubble lasted 6 months or so, main difference I could see was $50.

A customer was having trouble with $22 175 mh yard lites, I said "I'll fix that" so went to electrical supply and managed to buy one for $65 (probably Spartan or Lithonia), a month later I was working on it (don't remember if I changed parts or replaced it), main difference I could see was $43.

CH breakers cost me more than ITE and seem to have about the same failure rate.

But I got stuck with headache Chinese GFCI's, thats something I'll spend more on. Once I bought bell boxes that broke when trying to install. Same thing with die cast emt fittings (I think they came from B&B trading).

And as petersona said I've not noticed any big problems with IEC starters, last time I needed one would have been $250 for NEMA (local supplier), Automation Direct IEC was around $65 now that's too big a difference.

 

[petersonra]

I agree there is very little difference in hardware life span such as terminal strips. (again a generalized statement), but some items such as snap switches, receptacles and consumables such as batteries seem to have quite a varied lifetime. These simple items are which I refer to.

I grant you that there are some things that are not comparable. it is not always that easy to tell. I get a kick out of the battery thing. There are only a few companies actually making batteries in the US. They private label for all the common brands. It is not real easy to tell where a battery was made from the retail packaging. It is not unusual for different style packages of the same brand and style of battery to have come from different factories. I.e.-you might see a 4 pack of AA batteries in the store next to an 8 pack of the same brand and they were made in different factories, sometimes in different countries.

The batteries come off the same production line and are internally identical, but have different labels and packaging and there is a huge difference in the perception of quality. This is true of everything from car batteries to the batteries you buy at the drug store.

There are a number of brands that do not make any of the batteries they sell.

 

[nhfire77]

I agree. 7AH fire alarm batteries, for example. Two different brands, with identical specs, one weighs 8oz more. Thats because there's more lead, so it has greater capacity and a longer life (nominally). So how could the lighter battery have the same rating?

 

[petersonra]

I agree. 7AH fire alarm batteries, for example. Two different brands, with identical specs, one weighs 8oz more. Thats because there's more lead, so it has greater capacity and a longer life (nominally). So how could the lighter battery have the same rating?

different battery chemistry possibly? IIRC, some of the newer chemistry lead acid batteries use a lot less lead and more cadmium I think it is. Don't quote me on it being cadmium though. Might easily account for the different weights.

 

[Strife]

One of my larger customers has specific part numbers required for common repair parts. We are allowed to substitute any part as long as it is of equal or greater quality (determined by us, never been told no to a higher priced item). Some of their parts are the lowest quality and lead to repeat service calls over time for failure. I always spec out better materials that do not fail so quick. I love to do it right every time. The business side of me is screaming: put in the crap and get paid to change it out again in two years. No one is complaining either way, and additional service calls will not upset them in any way (I've experimented)

How do you feel about it? I will start a poll as well.

Are you talking?
1: Same type of material just different manufacturers?(IE 20A receptacle made by Leviton instead of P&S, or hubbel?, Sylvania ballasts instead of Howard industries? etc?)
In this case I seriously doubt there's any difference between manufacturers anymore. Most items are probably made by same manufacturers with different stickers or stamps slapped on them.

2: Or are you talking about using a better system? (IE twistlock instead of straight blades?)
We can talk this scenario till we're blue in the face. There's always room for better. I got a property management customer that has a lot of landscape lighting. All mounted on bell boxes with PVC conduit. Every time they fail I replace them with perma posts. It cost a lot more for a perma post (30 some VS 6-7 for a bell box), but the customer really appreciates them(One time a lawnmower drove straight over it, took the light, pushed the post at a 30% angle, but no other damage). So yes, I'm kinda driving myself out of business installing those(I'm noticing less and less calls as most boxes on the property are being replaced with perma posts).
Can you give a few examples of materials VS materials you're talking about?

 

[Strife]

I agree. 7AH fire alarm batteries, for example. Two different brands, with identical specs, one weighs 8oz more. Thats because there's more lead, so it has greater capacity and a longer life (nominally). So how could the lighter battery have the same rating?

Batteries technology came a LOOOOONG, LOOOOONG way.
How can you get 17-18 MPG from a pickup truck with same power as the ones built 20 years ago that give you 6-7 MPG?
Probably the 8oz heavier never bothered to upgrade their technology when building those batteries(either they have enough sales to make up the profit in wasting more lead, or they're going slowly down)

 

[nizak]

The worst item I have found to go "cheap" on is GFCI receptacles. Tried useing the inexpensive no brand (various different names I won't mention) and had consistent failure. Went back to only useing the Pass &Seymour and have never had a callback. I've actually even broken the terminal screws off the cheap ones during routine installation.

 

[sameguy]

Strife, more mpg due to computers, thinner metal, more plastic, Fuel injection, aluminum intake/heads, multivalves.

 

[nhfire77]

Batteries technology came a LOOOOONG, LOOOOONG way.
How can you get 17-18 MPG from a pickup truck with same power as the ones built 20 years ago that give you 6-7 MPG?
Probably the 8oz heavier never bothered to upgrade their technology when building those batteries(either they have enough sales to make up the profit in wasting more lead, or they're going slowly down)

I failed to mention:

The heavier batteries last longer, sometimes years longer.

 

[petersonra]

I failed to mention:

The heavier batteries last longer, sometimes years longer.

the lighter batteries have not been around long enough for them to last all that many years at all.

i am always suspicious of anecdotal evidence because among other things they are often based on sample sizes that are too small to be meaningful.

 

[nhfire77]

the lighter batteries have not been around long enough for them to last all that many years at all.

i am always suspicious of anecdotal evidence because among other things they are often based on sample sizes that are too small to be meaningful.

Specifically, the lighter batteries have always been the same weight, the heavier batteries has always been same weight. The lighter batteries have always been cheaper, the heavier batteries have always been more expensive.

The lighter cheaper batteries would be one example of cheaper speced materials that I always subsitiute with the heavier, more expensive ones

Not anedotical, 10+ years consistent track record.

 

[realolman]

One of my larger customers has specific part numbers required for common repair parts. We are allowed to substitute any part as long as it is of equal or greater quality (determined by us, never been told no to a higher priced item). Some of their parts are the lowest quality and lead to repeat service calls over time for failure. I always spec out better materials that do not fail so quick. I love to do it right every time. The business side of me is screaming: put in the crap and get paid to change it out again in two years. No one is complaining either way, and additional service calls will not upset them in any way (I've experimented)

How do you feel about it? I will start a poll as well.

Do what you would want to be done if you were the customer.
( that oughta be some sorta rule )