one inspector said yes, other says no on BONDING GAS TO WATER--Please help

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kbrandt

Member
Location
arizona
In this county we have to BOND water to gas. Now here's the problem and I will be taking this to the new inspector.

New service on old house. Inspector who is no longer with the county let us drive a ground rod (only one required here) take a #4 from service to closest gas (customer side) or water line and then go into the waterheater/ gas furnace room and run a # 4 from water to gas line. DONE.

OK new inspector wants us to run #4 all the way from the service to the water and gas outside, does not like the bond jumper from water to gas in utlity room. Says pipe may become energized and what if the clamp on either the gas or water (which ever one is used and closet to service) outside comes loose, someone may get shocked. He says can't use pipe as part of the conductivity for bonding.

I don't know if they consider water line and gas line as grounding electrode, I know the gas can't be used as electrode. But want them bonded.

On some of these houses the gas line is 50 to 100 feet away from water and service.

I have read all the threads and still fuzzy on the whole thing.

Which inspector is correct. This is bonding not grounding.

This house is old and does not have equipment grounds to some circuits. I know the rule on equipment ground to furnace. But need a clear answer on the bonding jumper from waterheater to gas for furnace, so I can show inspector, and yes I have read section 250, but nothing on my case is clear to me with the jumper.

I try to keep the cost down as much as I can, because these inspectors let every illegal electrical contracor do services as long as the home owner gets the permit and put self down, like they are doing the work themselves and charge way over $1000, most of the time more than me. And inspectors are fully aware of this, don't even mention the ROC, they do nothing, I've tried.
Sorry off main topic.

Please clear this up for inspector and myself.

Thanks for any help.
 
augie47

augie47

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Tennessee
Occupation
State Electrical Inspector (Retired)
A metallic water pipe that qualifies as an electrode must be bonded within 5 ft of it's entrance to the building, but bonding of piping systems that are not part of the electrode system can be accomplished at any location. Some AHJs ask for the bond to be at a particular location such as the water heater simply for consistency.
 
Dennis Alwon

Dennis Alwon

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Chapel Hill, NC
Occupation
Retired Electrical Contractor
Barring any amendments you generally don;t need to bond the black iron gas pipes as they are bonded thru the egc. 250.104(B)

However if there is CSST piping for the gas-- the flexible stuff then you must bond it at the point it enters the building.

If the water pipe is metallic in the ground for 10' or more then you must bond it within 5' of where it enters the building. If a meter is in line then you need to bond around the meter.

The csst can be connected to the GEC but must be done - in my area- outside the building.
 
iwire

iwire

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Massachusetts
kbrandt said:
I forgot to mention piping for gas and water are galvanized pipe. OLD.
Click to expand...

As I see it you are between a rock and a hard place as both inspectors seem to be requiring more than the NEC.

The NEC allows the gas pipe to be bonded by the equipment grounding conductor supplying equipment connected to the gas line.

250.104 Bonding of Piping Systems and Exposed Structural
Steel.
(B) Other Metal Piping. If installed in, or attached to, a
building or structure, a metal piping system(s), including
gas piping, that is likely to become energized shall be
bonded to the service equipment enclosure; the grounded
conductor at the service; the grounding electrode conductor,
if of sufficient size; or to one or more grounding electrodes
used. The bonding conductor(s) or jumper(s) shall be
sized in accordance with 250.122, using the rating of the
circuit that is likely to energize the piping system(s). The
equipment grounding conductor for the circuit that is likely
to energize the piping shall be permitted to serve as the
bonding means. The points of attachment of the bonding
jumper(s) shall be accessible.
Click to expand...
 
K

kbrandt

Member
Location
arizona
Here's what they require word for word.

(Bonding of piping systems-all interior metal piping shall be bonded to the electric grounding system. Gas piping shall be bonded on the house side of insulating coupling.)

So I think I can go from service to ground rod and then to gas pipe with #4, go inside home and use a bond jumper #4 from waterheater water line to gas for waterheater and furnace.

Does this comply to NEC?

Thanks again for any advice
 
steve66

steve66

Senior Member
Location
Illinois
Occupation
Engineer
In my opinion (and grounding and bonding is not one of my strong points), the water service should be directly bonded to the electric service or the ground electrode.

Bonding the gas pipe to the ground electrode, and then using 100' of gas pipe to get over to the water service, and then just bonding the water to the gas would be the same as using the gas pipe as a grounding electrode.
 
augie47

augie47

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Tennessee
Occupation
State Electrical Inspector (Retired)
kbrandt said:
Here's what they require word for word.

(Bonding of piping systems-all interior metal piping shall be bonded to the electric grounding system. Gas piping shall be bonded on the house side of insulating coupling.)

So I think I can go from service to ground rod and then to gas pipe with #4, go inside home and use a bond jumper #4 from waterheater water line to gas for waterheater and furnace.

Does this comply to NEC?

Thanks again for any advice
Click to expand...

You mentioned the water line being metallic. If there is 10 ft or more of metallic water line in contact with the earth it is an electrode and you must connect to it withing 5 ft of its entry to the house with a GEC sized per 250.66. On a 200 amp service, you could go from service to ground rod and then to metallic pipe as long as the conductor is sized per 250.66.
You could then bond from water to gas at any point.
 
K

kbrandt

Member
Location
arizona
Sorry gas is gas pipe not galvanized.

My thing is they want ground rod used as grounding electrode. Fine I got that, but it says bond gas and water (piping system) and he wants #4 ran all the way to both.

When I can just bond gas by service and use 5 feet of #4 in waterheater and furnace room to bond to electrical system. There its bonded not grounded.

From one day to the next these guys make different rules. And none have any training.

Tried to tell me that I couldn't run 1 #10 to j-box with 14 circuits and use that as the only ground had 13--20 amp breakers and one 40 2pole in emt conduit. I told him to look at 250-122 c. He said it just don't look right, what if someone cuts it with a hack saw. Please, this is what I deal with daily.
 
J

John120/240

Senior Member
Location
Olathe, Kansas
What if someone cuts the EMT conduit with a hacksaw ? The gas pipe ? The water pipe ?

He will get a Rude Awakening that is sure. Are these city inspectors ? Does the city not have

any type of basic qualifications ? What is the chief inspectors opinon ?
 
G

Gac66610

Senior Member
Location
Kansas
augie47 said:
You mentioned the water line being metallic. If there is 10 ft or more of metallic water line in contact with the earth it is an electrode and you must connect to it withing 5 ft of its entry to the house with a GEC sized per 250.66. On a 200 amp service, you could go from service to ground rod and then to metallic pipe as long as the conductor is sized per 250.66.
You could then bond from water to gas at any point.
Click to expand...

right or wrong i was always told that if (highlighted above) it was the primary grounding electrode and the ground rod was secondary

so i have always run to the service entrance, well within 5', then bond the gas (without CSST) anywhere accessible
 
H

hurk27

Senior Member
Location
Portage, Indiana NEC: 2008
I think you need to get in touch with your state or at least find out if Arizona has state wide electrical codes, codes are in fact law and law has to follow legal forms of adopting before they are enforceable, they cant just enforce something on a whim because they think so, I just went after a local inspector who tried to tell me I had to install a 200 amp panel for a dwelling just because it was over 1500 SF and aluminum wasn't allowed and a few other items that was not required that would have added thousands of dollars to this job that I was not going to take that big of a hit on, well after meeting with them and the state contacting them they backed up very fast and passed my service as I had installed it, remember bully's well keep on pushing you around until you fight back, and once they find out they can't bully you any more they leave you alone, another city here kept doing the same thing until the state threatened to dissolve their building department and take over the inspecting, this would have meant they would loose all the permit and inspecting fees that generated allot of income for the city, now I'm very good friends with that inspectors and he calls me for advice if he's not sure on something for which I freely give as I don't mind teaching.

but sometimes we must know when to pick our battles and if it is something that is no big deal I just do it but I let the inspector know it is not required.

I try to look up the laws in Arizona and see if you have anything at state level you might have to back this erroneous inspector off as the NEC does not really require much for bonding of gas piping systems and CSST is not an NEC requirement but a manufactures instruction requirement (110.3) and there are some codes now in areas that use IRC or IBc or NGC that cover CSST, but I have a very low opinion of the effectiveness of these requirements.

Ground rods are only required where you have no other electrode or where you have a water pipe used as an electrode with no other electrode to supplement it, if your state requires th concrete encased electrode then you don't even need to install a ground rod, even if you do the conductor to it is only required to be a #6 if it is the sole connection to a ground rod, now if you use the rod to jump off to another electrode then it needs to be 250.66 sized to the largest requirement for the electrode jumping off the rod, CEE would be a #4 water pipe would be sized on 250.66 for the SEC's
Now requirement for the gas pipe are not the same as the requirement for water pipe in 250.104(A)

250.104(B) bond to a gas pipe only has to be 250.122 sized for the largest circuit that might likely energize it, in almost all cases this would be an appliance that uses both electric and gas such as the furnace or water heater, so then the EGC that is running with the circuit conductors is allowed to be the bond for the gas pipe, this is where these people get things crossed up, a water pipe will many times be connected to a city supply that will have a electrical connection back to the utility through another service, this is not so with a gas pipe as their will always be a insulating break (Or should be as it is require by the gas code) between the house and the gas meter in the form of a dielectric union or coupling, this is why the NEC only requires the conductor sized for the fault current of a circuit that might energize the pipe.

Now CSST is a horse of a different color and as been posted is a whole different problem that does not happen (or is very rare) to ridge black iron pipe, that is being struck by lightning or the appliance it feeds being struck, which any appliance with a metal flue that breaks the roof line is very subject to being struck such as fire places furnaces, even water heaters, the problem is it is such a problem that no one is wanting to try to take a stand against this stuff, and it is burning down houses and in some cases resulted in deaths but the NEC doesn't even address it, and the national gas code has taken a distant view by just leaving it up to the manufactures to come up with a way to bond it, which most now require it to be bonded at the point where it enters the building which in in my opinion is not enough, but thats another thread.

I'll see what I can find on the Internet on Arizona.
 
acrwc10

acrwc10

Master Code Professional
Location
CA
Occupation
Building inspector
John120/240 said:
SAFETY MESSAGE: Not electrical but here all gas pipe would be black pipe. Galvanized pipe is

OK for domestic water but galvanized pipe does not go with natural gas.[/QUOTE]

On what planet? Galvanized pipe is used for natural gas every day all over the world. I know plumbers that prefer to use galvanized pipe over black pipe, because it is easier to thread and has less leaks than black pipe.
Click to expand...
 
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