one inspector said yes, other says no on BONDING GAS TO WATER--Please help

Gac66610

Senior Member
Location
Kansas
In my opinion (and grounding and bonding is not one of my strong points), the water service should be directly bonded to the electric service or the ground electrode.

Bonding the gas pipe to the ground electrode, and then using 100' of gas pipe to get over to the water service, and then just bonding the water to the gas would be the same as using the gas pipe as a grounding electrode.
good point,IMO, you can bond the gas line from water, but not water from gas
 

acrwc10

Senior Member
Well, I'm sure it's not the norm to use galv. pipe for gas. I've never seen it. But to your credit, I don't see what it hurt either.
Black pipe will rust but it is cheaper than galvanized, so it is normal to see galvanized in wet locations (outside) and black pipe inside the building. The other day I saw black pipe on an electrical feeder going through a house.
 

hurk27

Senior Member
Well Arizona is local only, Not what I was hoping to find, but it still doesen't release them from the Constitution of the United States and the requirement of correctly adopting law through the proper methods as with any law it has to be by the people for the people and of the people.

We need more people to get involved with matters like this as there is no reason to have different codes from one place to the next in a state, and it makes contracting a nightmare trying to remember who requires what, where, and how much.

How do you bid a job when the requirement are always changing???

I can remember back when we had this and I went after it big time, as there were some areas that if you didn't pay you would not pass, and this is what happens when there is no rules, we now enjoy the same rules in every area of Indiana, and we have a state that will step in when they try not to play by those rules we have even had inspectors ousted and the possibility of the city or county loosing their building department if they didn't stop trying to enforce their own wishes.

Sorry for the rant but having been in the electrical trade for over 37 years I know how it is to have to deal with things like this.

here are a few other states with no state wide codes or very limited, or local can over ride the state:
Hawaii
Illinois
Kansas
Maryland
Mississippi
Missouri
Nevada
Oklahoma (has state wide codes as a minimum but local can require more)

Found HERE
If a local code can exceed a state code why even have a state code?? here a local can not conflict with a state code no matter what, and if a local want to get a variance for a stricter code it has to be adopted state wide, it was felt that if it is good for one place it is good for the whole state, so not many get adopted.
 

Gac66610

Senior Member
Location
Kansas
Well Arizona is local only, Not what I was hoping to find, but it still doesen't release them from the Constitution of the United States and the requirement of correctly adopting law through the proper methods as with any law it has to be by the people for the people and of the people.

We need more people to get involved with matters like this as there is no reason to have different codes from one place to the next in a state, and it makes contracting a nightmare trying to remember who requires what, where, and how much.

How do you bid a job when the requirement are always changing???

I can remember back when we had this and I went after it big time, as there were some areas that if you didn't pay you would not pass, and this is what happens when there is no rules, we now enjoy the same rules in every area of Indiana, and we have a state that will step in when they try not to play by those rules we have even had inspectors ousted and the possibility of the city or county loosing their building department if they didn't stop trying to enforce their own wishes.

Sorry for the rant but having been in the electrical trade for over 37 years I know how it is to have to deal with things like this.

here are a few other states with no state wide codes or very limited, or local can over ride the state:
Hawaii
Illinois
Kansas
Maryland
Mississippi
Missouri
Nevada
Oklahoma (has state wide codes as a minimum but local can require more)

Found HERE
If a local code can exceed a state code why even have a state code?? here a local can not conflict with a state code no matter what, and if a local want to get a variance for a stricter code it has to be adopted state wide, it was felt that if it is good for one place it is good for the whole state, so not many get adopted.
Kansas does have a state wide minimum code requirement also, but as Oklahoma locals can require more,
you remember my thread on AFCI's I called the state fire marshal to verify (2006 IRC)

the others just state that they have not adopted the NEC does not say anything about IBC,or IRC
 

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
Sorry gas is gas pipe not galvanized.

My thing is they want ground rod used as grounding electrode. Fine I got that, but it says bond gas and water (piping system) and he wants #4 ran all the way to both.

When I can just bond gas by service and use 5 feet of #4 in waterheater and furnace room to bond to electrical system. There its bonded not grounded.

From one day to the next these guys make different rules. And none have any training.

Tried to tell me that I couldn't run 1 #10 to j-box with 14 circuits and use that as the only ground had 13--20 amp breakers and one 40 2pole in emt conduit. I told him to look at 250-122 c. He said it just don't look right, what if someone cuts it with a hack saw. Please, this is what I deal with daily.
As others have already said - if metallic water pipe is 10 feet or more in the ground it is an electrode - it is also a primary electrode over any made electrodes (like a ground rod). If there is a concrete encased electrode and a water pipe electrode no ground rod is even required - the other two are better electrodes than a ground rod.

SAFETY MESSAGE: Not electrical but here all gas pipe would be black pipe. Galvanized pipe is

OK for domestic water but galvanized pipe does not go with natural gas.[/QUOTE]

On what planet? Galvanized pipe is used for natural gas every day all over the world. I know plumbers that prefer to use galvanized pipe over black pipe, because it is easier to thread and has less leaks than black pipe.
Not a gas expert but have always understood natural gas does not play well with galvanized or copper, that is why gas piping for natural gas is usually black pipe, stainless, aluminum - usually within appliances like pilot tubing often is aluminum or valve bodies are often aluminum. Copper is used with LP gas but you never see galvanized with LP either - not sure if it is allowed or not.
 

hurk27

Senior Member
As others have already said - if metallic water pipe is 10 feet or more in the ground it is an electrode - it is also a primary electrode over any made electrodes (like a ground rod). If there is a concrete encased electrode and a water pipe electrode no ground rod is even required - the other two are better electrodes than a ground rod.

Not a gas expert but have always understood natural gas does not play well with galvanized or copper, that is why gas piping for natural gas is usually black pipe, stainless, aluminum - usually within appliances like pilot tubing often is aluminum or valve bodies are often aluminum. Copper is used with LP gas but you never see galvanized with LP either - not sure if it is allowed or not.
here for a while they were using copper with a crimp fitting type connectors just like water except the pipe has "GAS" printed in yellow all along its length, the crimp fittings had an O ring seal in them , but when the price of copper got too high it went by the way side, CSST has also scared too many that you don't see much being used but by only a few that just don't care, most went back to black pipe.

I was told that the additive that give the gas the rotten egg smell dissolves the galvanizing and turns it to a white powder that clogs the orifice of the pilots and that is why its not supposed to be used, but I can't say for sure that happens, others told me the galvanized flake off and the same results, but here out utility doesn't not allow galvanized or aluminum, now I have seen aluminum with holes right through it from that additive, a utility worker removed a piece of it that went from the black pipe to a furnace and the was all eaten up inside.
 

ritelec

Senior Member
Location
Jersey
That has to do with CSST which is a different thing than the OP has. :)

yes. thank you.

Just trying to get it all in perspective.

Did however notice in that post the link mentioning bonding csst to grounding electrode system, and bonding of pipe system is through the circuits ground conductor feeding the gas appliance (which should be the OP's situation).
 

stew

Senior Member
Galvanized gas pipe is not to be used in any gas system particularly propane systems are the worst. The zinc coating indeed will flake and cause nemerous clogging problems in the system. The fuel gas code does not allow galvanized pipe in any gas piping systems. The flaking will clog main orifices and pilot light orifices faster than fast!.
 

97catintenn

Senior Member
Location
Columbia, TN
The fuel gas code does not allow galvanized pipe in any gas piping systems.
for underground installs. the rest of the code goes by the manufacturer's install instructions for approved manner. Which maybe they don't allow either...but while we are discussing code, here it is.

IFGC 2009

404.9 Protection against corrosion. Metallic pipe or tubing
exposed to corrosive action, such as soil condition or moisture,
shall be protected in an approved manner. Zinc coatings (galvanizing)
shall not be deemed adequate protection for gas piping
underground.
 

stew

Senior Member
for underground plastic is the material of choice (cheaper and easier to run). If black Iron is used it must be wrapped with a mastic coated black protective tape for anywhere it is in direct earth contact. I can tell you right now that any gas piper who has actually taken the fuel gas piping training knows not to ever use galv. not even a galv fitting in the run. Copper is the chioce for flexible lines at the tank for propane.A copper line from a black iron riser which is coated with plastic is what is used to the regulator. Never ever galv anywhere.
 

readydave8

re member
Location
Clarkesville, Georgia
Occupation
electrician
Galvanized gas pipe is not to be used in any gas system particularly propane systems are the worst. The zinc coating indeed will flake and cause nemerous clogging problems in the system. The fuel gas code does not allow galvanized pipe in any gas piping systems. The flaking will clog main orifices and pilot light orifices faster than fast!.
Just for fun can you be more specific about "the fuel gas code?" Maybe even a link? I've been wondering about gal gas piping for a long time but have only gotten hearsay answers.
 

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
After a quick visit to the RIGID plumbing forum, its a split decision. Some allow galvanized,

others don't. https://www.ridgidforum.com/forum/t18505
I did not read that entire thread - but what I did notice in what I did read is none of them ever provided any references to their claims of what is code.

I find the electrical trade to be very good about referencing codes to back up their claims where many other trades just have the attitude of "that is just the way it is" and never seem to question why things are the way they are.

Maybe the electrical industry has more universally accepted one code (the NEC) than other trades have accepted a single code and that has a little to do with it.
 

97catintenn

Senior Member
Location
Columbia, TN
Ok I won't but is there a code reference?
I posted it in post #29, but I'll post more code this time.

2009 IFGC

404.7 Above-ground outdoor piping. All piping installed
outdoors shall be elevated not less than 3 1/2 inches (152 mm)
above ground and where installed across roof surfaces, shall be
elevated not less than 3 1/2 inches (152 mm) above the roof surface.
Piping installed above ground, outdoors, and installed
across the surface of roofs shall be securely supported and
located where it will be protected from physical damage.
Where passing through an outside wall, the piping shall also be
protected against corrosion by coating or wrapping with an
inert material
. Where piping is encased in a protective pipe
sleeve, the annular space between the piping and the sleeve
shall be sealed.

404.8 Isolation. Metallic piping and metallic tubing that conveys
fuel gas from an LP-gas storage container shall be provided
with an approved dielectric fitting to electrically isolate
the underground portion of the pipe or tube from the above
ground portion that enters a building. Such dielectric fitting
shall be installed above ground, outdoors.

404.9 Protection against corrosion. Metallic pipe or tubing
exposed to corrosive action, such as soil condition or moisture,
shall be protected in an approved manner. Zinc coatings (galvanizing)
shall not be deemed adequate protection for gas piping
underground. Where dissimilar metals are joined underground,
an insulating coupling or fitting shall be used. Piping
shall not be laid in contact with cinders.

404.9.1 Prohibited use. Uncoated threaded or socket
welded joints shall not be used inpiping in contact with soil
or where internal or external crevice corrosion is known to
occur.

404.9.2 Protective coatings and wrapping. Pipe protective
coatings and wrappings shall be approved for the application
and shall be factory applied.

Exception: Where installed in accordance with the manufacturer's
installation instructions, field application of
coatings and wrappings shall be permitted for pipe nippIes, fittings and locations where the factory coating or
wrapping has been damaged or necessarily removed at
joints.
 

curt swartz

Electrical Contractor - San Jose, CA
Location
San Jose, CA
Occupation
Electrical Contractor
I posted it in post #29, but I'll post more code this time.

2009 IFGC

404.7 Above-ground outdoor piping. All piping installed
outdoors shall be elevated not less than 3 1/2 inches (152 mm)
above ground and where installed across roof surfaces, shall be
elevated not less than 3 1/2 inches (152 mm) above the roof surface.
Piping installed above ground, outdoors, and installed
across the surface of roofs shall be securely supported and
located where it will be protected from physical damage.
Where passing through an outside wall, the piping shall also be
protected against corrosion by coating or wrapping with an
inert material
. Where piping is encased in a protective pipe
sleeve, the annular space between the piping and the sleeve
shall be sealed.

404.8 Isolation. Metallic piping and metallic tubing that conveys
fuel gas from an LP-gas storage container shall be provided
with an approved dielectric fitting to electrically isolate
the underground portion of the pipe or tube from the above
ground portion that enters a building. Such dielectric fitting
shall be installed above ground, outdoors.

404.9 Protection against corrosion. Metallic pipe or tubing
exposed to corrosive action, such as soil condition or moisture,
shall be protected in an approved manner. Zinc coatings (galvanizing)
shall not be deemed adequate protection for gas piping
underground. Where dissimilar metals are joined underground,
an insulating coupling or fitting shall be used. Piping
shall not be laid in contact with cinders.

404.9.1 Prohibited use. Uncoated threaded or socket
welded joints shall not be used inpiping in contact with soil
or where internal or external crevice corrosion is known to
occur.

404.9.2 Protective coatings and wrapping. Pipe protective
coatings and wrappings shall be approved for the application
and shall be factory applied.

Exception: Where installed in accordance with the manufacturer's
installation instructions, field application of
coatings and wrappings shall be permitted for pipe nippIes, fittings and locations where the factory coating or
wrapping has been damaged or necessarily removed at
joints.
The above is just stating that you can not use the galvanized coating as the sole protection for underground gas piping. That has nothing to do with using galvanized piping for above ground use.
 

97catintenn

Senior Member
Location
Columbia, TN
I know, and you probably can use galv. pipe. The code does not say that you can't ever (just not underground). I can say that I have never seen it, though :lol:
 

97catintenn

Senior Member
Location
Columbia, TN
Before someone posts that I'm not being helpful...there were several requests for code references and I was able to provide. Define approved means is the next thing to debate.
 
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