Home Inspector Questions

[HRInspector]

I understand that many electrical contractors have great disdain and even animosity toward home inspectors. I still don?t quite understand the reasoning, but was hoping to find a forum where I could, as a home inspector, learn directly from those who know best. Please don?t throw the 40 hours and anyone can do it reasoning at me. I have spent 1000?s of hours continuing to learn about all aspects of the home, the electrical system is just one part. I am not trying to present myself as a licensed electrical contractor, but do want to be extremely proficient as a visual inspector of the system.

It is unreasonable to think that a potential homeowner should hire a specialist in each trade to inspect the respective systems prior to purchase. Logistically and financially it will just not happen. So as home inspectors we give a general assessment of the property from top to bottom and let the potential buyer know what specialists they need to correct certain conditions in the property. Homeowners get very creative when it comes to ?upgrading? things in their homes, and many of these items need to be addressed.

Some questions I have are:

What are typical things that you feel a home inspector should be able to see during a visual inspection?
What are some of the things that you have been called out to repair that were unnecessary?
What are some things that you feel home inspectors miss during their inspections?

My goal here is to learn. What are things that are important to call out so you all can come in and make the necessary corrections. Some of you will be of the mindset that we shouldn?t do any inspections of the electrical system, but be that as it may it is going to continue. I hope I have found a forum where I can learn from so I can better inspect and report to you all the conditions that are present in the homes my clients are purchasing.

So, welcome me or tell me to pound sand. I look forward to the possibility of learning here.

 

[charlie b]

So as home inspectors we give a general assessment of the property from top to bottom and let the potential buyer know what specialists they need to correct certain conditions in the property.

I, for one, am in favor of that approach.

So, welcome me or tell me to pound sand. I look forward to the possibility of learning here.

I will go with the welcome option. The only groups that get the "pound sand" approach (though we use nicer phrases than that) are people who try to use the forum to sell goods and services, and people who have no business relation with the trade, and who want us to help them do their own electrical work.

 

[mjf]

Excellent presentation of yourself and your intent.

Welcome to this forum and I hope it provides what you're after.

Only thing I can think of off-hand that I've experienced is HI calling for GFCI protection in kitchen and bathrooms in older homes that were built prior to GFCI's.

Granted, it should be suggested and done for safety and protection, but as far as I know, a GFCI "upgrade" is not REQUIRED.

I could be wrong....maybe thats one of those "sale of property" requirements like a working CO2 detector. Just sold the house I grew up in (as is) -(no inspections) and at the closing, signed the CO2 statement, but nothing about GFCI.

 

[kwired]

I understand that many electrical contractors have great disdain and even animosity toward home inspectors. I still don?t quite understand the reasoning, but was hoping to find a forum where I could, as a home inspector, learn directly from those who know best. Please don?t throw the 40 hours and anyone can do it reasoning at me. I have spent 1000?s of hours continuing to learn about all aspects of the home, the electrical system is just one part. I am not trying to present myself as a licensed electrical contractor, but do want to be extremely proficient as a visual inspector of the system.

It is unreasonable to think that a potential homeowner should hire a specialist in each trade to inspect the respective systems prior to purchase. Logistically and financially it will just not happen. So as home inspectors we give a general assessment of the property from top to bottom and let the potential buyer know what specialists they need to correct certain conditions in the property. Homeowners get very creative when it comes to ?upgrading? things in their homes, and many of these items need to be addressed.

Some questions I have are:

What are typical things that you feel a home inspector should be able to see during a visual inspection?
What are some of the things that you have been called out to repair that were unnecessary?
What are some things that you feel home inspectors miss during their inspections?

My goal here is to learn. What are things that are important to call out so you all can come in and make the necessary corrections. Some of you will be of the mindset that we shouldn?t do any inspections of the electrical system, but be that as it may it is going to continue. I hope I have found a forum where I can learn from so I can better inspect and report to you all the conditions that are present in the homes my clients are purchasing.

So, welcome me or tell me to pound sand. I look forward to the possibility of learning here.

I like your approach to this.

You have to remember buying a home that has been lived in before is no different than buying a used car. It will have potential problems as it has had some use. The HI that picks on every small detail, and especially things that were likely code compliant at time of installation need to change their way of doing things.

I occasionally get asked to do electrical inspection of a home - usually by a lender as there is not really any HI's in this area. I do not tell them they must change this or that. I make them a report of things that I feel are threats to life and property, I also make notes of what is not code compliant, as well as list of things that are not current code compliant but may have been at time of installation. I also tell them the report is based on what I was able to see at time of inspection and that there could be items that are concealed that could be a problem but would require extensive destruction to confirm whether or not they exist. The information is just that information of what was seen at the time. Owner or buyer can do what they want with that information. I have no real authority to condemn an installation and order POCO to disconnect, but if I run into something where that seems like a good idea my report will tell them what is wrong and give some examples of some dangerous situations that could potentially happen as a result.

A HI is not a public safety authority. They are just advisors as to what condition the home is in. The information they provide is really nothing more than potential fuel for use as bargaining tool between buyers and sellers.

If an owner is informed something is not up to codes why are they liable for something that happens down the road to the buyer? The buyer was informed of the problem, has documentation of it, and could have chosen to either repair it, request the seller to repair it before the sale, or offer the seller a lower price as compensation for it. Now it is the buyer's liability issue, no matter which course of action was taken.

 

[HRInspector]

Only thing I can think of off-hand that I've experienced is HI calling for GFCI protection in kitchen and bathrooms in older homes that were built prior to GFCI's.

I put in my reports what the GFCI is for, where they are now required, and where they are presently in the house. I do recommend that they be installed, but never state they must be installed. Now if they are installed and not working then I do state they should be repaired or replaced. Either way more work for the electrical contractor.

A big part of my job is managing customer expectations. They will be buying a 30 year old home and want it brand new with all the upgrades. That is not the purpose of a home inspection in my opinion. From me they get a report on the condition of the home that day and what they do with that information is between them and their Realtor.

I appreciate the feedback gentlemen, and look forward to asking more questions soon.

 

[Dennis Alwon]

I for one like home inspectors as they send me work. Sure sometimes the things they comment on are inaccurate but I deal with the clients and discuss what they would like to do.

I think one problem I see is the HI citing problems from today's code that were compliant when the house was built. This often puts pressure on the homeowner to fix things they should not be responsible for. On the other hand I realize you guys represent the buyer and you need to give them a heads up. I don't know if there will ever be an answer for that.

 

[al hildenbrand]

What are typical things that you feel a home inspector should be able to see during a visual inspection?
What are some of the things that you have been called out to repair that were unnecessary?
What are some things that you feel home inspectors miss during their inspections?

My goal here is to learn. What are things that are important to call out so you all can come in and make the necessary corrections.

What a great question. (I take what I quote as a whole.)

I understand what drives your question, but, regrettably, in my opinion, there is not a "cookbook" answer, that is, a recipe of specific ingredients that make up every dwelling's premises wiring system. The reason is that there are, simply, too many permutations of what a "legal" assembly can be.

 

[kwired]

I for one like home inspectors as they send me work. Sure sometimes the things they comment on are inaccurate but I deal with the clients and discuss what they would like to do.

I think one problem I see is the HI citing problems from today's code that were compliant when the house was built. This often puts pressure on the homeowner to fix things they should not be responsible for. On the other hand I realize you guys represent the buyer and you need to give them a heads up. I don't know if there will ever be an answer for that.

My opinion they do not necessarily represent the buyer. They should represent the house for whatever it is, if they are doing their job correctly.

If you go to buy a used car and bring your mechanic with you the most he is going to do is tell you what he thinks about it. He does not guarantee you will get a better price than the seller is asking for, there is no guarantee the seller will repair any deficiencies he finds, he does not guarantee you are getting a car that is "like new". He sees what he sees and mentions it to interested parties - they can use that information for bargaining if they wish.

Some people watch too much HGTV. A seller does not have to fix anything, a potential buyer does not have to purchase if they don't like something. Or they can come to some agreement somewhere in between.

 

[al hildenbrand]

I put in my reports what the GFCI is for, where they are now required, and where they are presently in the house. I do recommend that they be installed, but never state they must be installed.

Is your report's approval of the existing GFCIs as code compliant the absence of the negative statement that something is missing or not working? Or, do you state something to the effect that "while not required, increased safety can be achieved with GFCIs in additional locations."

Now if they are installed and not working then I do state they should be repaired or replaced.

Absolutely. This is valuable and necessary information to convey in the HI report.

Either way more work for the electrical contractor.

Well, not necessarily.

You see, to me, the HI report that tries to inform how one can improve safety by, say, adding GFCIs in certain locations when they are not required by the codes and ordinances that apply to the specific dwelling, is, in fact, trying to suggest improvements beyond the letter of the law. An HI, being an expert in codes, in this situation, by the weight of his expertise, is almost creating code, especially if the HI report is silent about the current installation being code compliant and that additional GFCIs are not required.

This is very confusing to the non-specialist who is turning to the HI for guidance.

I arrive, having been brought in by the parties that have received such a report, and I get to explain that the GFCIs present are all that are required and that no work is necessary, and then I get to leave, having lost this time, because the HI thought it was good to CYA by over sharing. I'm irritated at the misinformation of the report, and the parties that called me in are left confused. They've spent good money on the HI and have just learned that he was not as sharp as they thought, and then have to wonder and worry about who is right, if any one at all.

And the HI was just trying to make every thing safer for every one.

So, then, this situation, to me, represents the knife's edge. Somehow, the HI needs to convey the state of the electrical system without giving the impression that more than the minimum required by code and ordinance is actually required. This is a subtle art, that, after decades of work, I am still learning. As the "electrical specialist" I'm probably better than the HI, but I can learn from the HI as well.

The challenge for the HI is to call in the specialist at the limit of the individual HI's expertise and knowledge of what local code and ordinance requires, without leaving the person receiving the report overly educated in suggestions that are not code or ordinance.

 

[kwired]

Is your report's approval of the existing GFCIs as code compliant the absence of the negative statement that something is missing or not working? Or, do you state something to the effect that "while not required, increased safety can be achieved with GFCIs in additional locations."Absolutely. This is valuable and necessary information to convey in the HI report. Well, not necessarily.

You see, to me, the HI report that tries to inform how one can improve safety by, say, adding GFCIs in certain locations when they are not required by the codes and ordinances that apply to the specific dwelling, is, in fact, trying to suggest improvements beyond the letter of the law. An HI, being an expert in codes, in this situation, by the weight of his expertise, is almost creating code, especially if the HI report is silent about the current installation being code compliant and that additional GFCIs are not required.

This is very confusing to the non-specialist who is turning to the HI for guidance.

I arrive, having been brought in by the parties that have received such a report, and I get to explain that the GFCIs present are all that are required and that no work is necessary, and then I get to leave, having lost this time, because the HI thought it was good to CYA by over sharing. I'm irritated at the misinformation of the report, and the parties that called me in are left confused. They've spent good money on the HI and have just learned that he was not as sharp as they thought, and then have to wonder and worry about who is right, if any one at all.

And the HI was just trying to make every thing safer for every one.

So, then, this situation, to me, represents the knife's edge. Somehow, the HI needs to convey the state of the electrical system without giving the impression that more than the minimum required by code and ordinance is actually required. This is a subtle art, that, after decades of work, I am still learning. As the "electrical specialist" I'm probably better than the HI, but I can learn from the HI as well.

The challenge for the HI is to call in the specialist at the limit of the individual HI's expertise and knowledge of what local code and ordinance requires, without leaving the person receiving the report overly educated in suggestions that are not code or ordinance.

And when I do such reports I don't mention that something must be done, or is safe, or that even though it is not code I have seen this same situation many times before. That is just fuel for future litigation if they thought I meant things are safe or need no attention. I simply state what condition I saw and what code may be in violation, or if something is worn out or not working properly it is simply mentioned that it is not working, and possibly suggest what to do to bring to code or repair non working items.

 

[hurk27]

Some questions I have are:.

What are typical things that you feel a home inspector should be able to see during a visual inspection?.

Modified wiring and or open splices, signs of non-professional code compliant work, things like open or flying splices.
3-wire ranges or dryer circuits fed from sub-panels or in the case of a service up grade and the old panel became a sub-panel the above was left in the panel that is now a sub panel, and also having the neutrals and equipment grounding conductors bonded together in a sub panel.
Anything that was never allowed by code (which can be a hard call if you don't know code history, 3-wire receptacles with no EGC or GFCI protection, and if it shows an EGC and you only see non-grounded NM in the panel then suspect boot legged grounds to neutrals at receptacles (very big hazard) as is to small of conductors for the breaker, but only where the code doesn't allow it, as motor loads such as AC units can be code compliant depending upon the size and the label listing the minimum and max circuit size, we wire for the min protect for the max so you can end up having #14awg on a 30 or 40 amp breaker and be code compliant.
The list can be endless so I'll let others add to it

What are some of the things that you have been called out to repair that were unnecessary?.

One of my favorite ones is two wires on a breaker only to find it is a breaker that accepts two wire, most Square D breakers are design for two wires and is totally code compliant, HI's requiring a house to meet todays codes as already mention, again like I said you need to learn code history

What are some things that you feel home inspectors miss during their inspections?.

see answer to first question

My goal here is to learn. What are things that are important to call out so you all can come in and make the necessary corrections. Some of you will be of the mindset that we shouldn?t do any inspections of the electrical system, but be that as it may it is going to continue. I hope I have found a forum where I can learn from so I can better inspect and report to you all the conditions that are present in the homes my clients are purchasing.

So, welcome me or tell me to pound sand. I look forward to the possibility of learning here.

And I think its great that you show the initiative to learn instead of just calling things out because you think its bad.
Here in Indiana it got so bad that we got with the state to get license of HI's in place, we had some who actually thought they had the same legal rights of a city inspector (which is an officer of law by the way) and was demanding things be changed, well not any more as they are now license by the state and have a set of laws they must adhere too.

We all know that there are things that loan company's require, insurance company's require, and then there are the HUD, VA, FHA requirements that you must report, I have seen these requirements distorted and extra things required that were not required, but many insurance company's can refuse to insure a house with fuses even if the service is over a 100 amps, while HUD is ok with it as long as it meets the 100 amp minimum, so there are things many of us wont be able to correctly answer other then hear say, or from what we have been required to do in the field, I did have all these requirements at one time but I never updated them but I think most can be found on the Internet, like FHA requires in kitchens and baths any receptacle within 6' of a sink to be GFCI protected, but not garages or outdoor receipts, an insurance company might require both, the problem is you have to report for each and every entity so buyer can make an inform decision as to how to deal with it knowing they will need insurance, and will be getting a HUD or FHA or VA backed loan.

Well got to run, will check back later, and Welcome to the forum.

 

[kwired]

Modified wiring and or open splices, signs of non-professional code compliant work, things like open or flying splices.
3-wire ranges or dryer circuits fed from sub-panels or in the case of a service up grade and the old panel became a sub-panel the above was left in the panel that is now a sub panel, and also having the neutrals and equipment grounding conductors bonded together in a sub panel.
Anything that was never allowed by code (which can be a hard call if you don't know code history, 3-wire receptacles with no EGC or GFCI protection, and if it shows an EGC and you only see non-grounded NM in the panel then suspect boot legged grounds to neutrals at receptacles (very big hazard) as is to small of conductors for the breaker, but only where the code doesn't allow it, as motor loads such as AC units can be code compliant depending upon the size and the label listing the minimum and max circuit size, we wire for the min protect for the max so you can end up having #14awg on a 30 or 40 amp breaker and be code compliant.
The list can be endless so I'll let others add to it



One of my favorite ones is two wires on a breaker only to find it is a breaker that accepts two wire, most Square D breakers are design for two wires and is totally code compliant, HI's requiring a house to meet todays codes as already mention, again like I said you need to learn code history


see answer to first question



And I think its great that you show the initiative to learn instead of just calling things out because you think its bad.
Here in Indiana it got so bad that we got with the state to get license of HI's in place, we had some who actually thought they had the same legal rights of a city inspector (which is an officer of law by the way) and was demanding things be changed, well not any more as they are now license by the state and have a set of laws they must adhere too.

We all know that there are things that loan company's require, insurance company's require, and then there are the HUD, VA, FHA requirements that you must report, I have seen these requirements distorted and extra things required that were not required, but many insurance company's can refuse to insure a house with fuses even if the service is over a 100 amps, while HUD is ok with it as long as it meets the 100 amp minimum, so there are things many of us wont be able to correctly answer other then hear say, or from what we have been required to do in the field, I did have all these requirements at one time but I never updated them but I think most can be found on the Internet, like FHA requires in kitchens and baths any receptacle within 6' of a sink to be GFCI protected, but not garages or outdoor receipts, an insurance company might require both, the problem is you have to report for each and every entity so buyer can make an inform decision as to how to deal with it knowing they will need insurance, and will be getting a HUD or FHA or VA backed loan.

Well got to run, will check back later, and Welcome to the forum.

If you are inspecting for HUD, FHA, VA, etc. then you should be inspecting to whatever their standards are. Even a new building by any of those standards would likely be inspected by someone representing one of those organizations. The local AHJ normally will only inspect to whatever the local code is and not to HUD, FHA, etc. may have. New construction there is likely not as much descrepencies, existing buildings is where those other agencies often want certain things brought up to current codes. But not necessarily everything.

 

[texie]

HRInspector gets an "A" for presentation and attitude. The HI industry has some real bad apples, but to be fair, so does the electrical contracting industry.

 

[al hildenbrand]

HRInspector gets an "A" for presentation and attitude. The HI industry has some real bad apples, but to be fair, so does the electrical contracting industry.

The power inherent in being trained in the Code gives the ability to mislead. In my experience, some of the hardest cases happen when every one thinks they are "right".

In the major metro that I work in, such differences pop up in the "best" of places. Why just a year ago I had a city employed, trained and empowered HI claim that a fused general duty safety switch was a "hazard" that had to be replaced because it had no dead front when one serviced the fuses. The situation was called out in a 1951 dwelling with ~25 fused safety switches, all original to the first construction.

The city HI department would not relent until the State electrical inspection community weighed in, in my support. Attempts at discussing the Code, historical and present, with anyone at the HI Department were deflected by reference to an unquoted and unshared ordinance that declared the potential to touch an insulated conductor or conductive surfaced as a hazard.

 

[jumper]

I, for one, am in favor of that approach.
I will go with the welcome option. The only groups that get the "pound sand" approach (though we use nicer phrases than that) are people who try to use the forum to sell goods and services, and people who have no business relation with the trade, and who want us to help them do their own electrical work.

Well said as always.:thumbsup:

 

[jumper]

HRInspector gets an "A" for presentation and attitude. The HI industry has some real bad apples, but to be fair, so does the electrical contracting industry.

Agreed.

 

[HRInspector]

Thanks for the replies. As a home inspector I do not use the word code during my inspections or in my reports. I do not want to infer to my client that I am ensuring that a house is code compliant because that is outside the scope of a home inspection. Since GFCI was mentioned a couple of times I will show you what I typically put in my report when there is a lack of GFCI protection. This may change after your review

IMPROVE:Ground Fault Circuit Interrupter (GFCI) protection of home electrical outlets was not provided in the home at locations where it now deemed necessary. Although GFCI protection may not have been required at the time the home was built, for safety reasons, consider upgrading the electrical system to include GFCI protection at the following locations: ? Bathrooms ? Outside ? Garages ? Crawlspace (at or below grade) ? Unfinished basements ? Kitchens ? Laundry rooms ? Within 6 feet of all plumbing fixtures ? Boathouses


GFCI protection is available as GFCI circuit breakers or as GFCI outlets. Both devices are designed to trip to prevent electrical shock or electrocution. Consider having GFCI protection installed as a safety precaution.

Things in my report that are not in need of repair or replacement get labels like MAINTENANCE, IMPROVE, or FYI. It is my opinion that it is a good idea to have GFCI protection in a home that does not have it because it was built at a time that it was not required. I rarely use terms like MUST in my reports unless there is an imminent concern for safety.

I do represent the buyers during the inspection, but I let them know that I am only there to provide an unbiased visual assessment of the property on the day of the inspection. They in turn will use this information while working with their Realtor to determine what they will ask of the seller.

As for mistakes being called out, I am sure I have made some. My goal is to make fewer by continuously trying to learn. I figure the best place to learn about electrical inspections is from those who do the work. I have a thick skin, so when I ask stupid questions, feel free to let me know, my end game is to learn and provide my clients with the best information I can.

 

[readydave8]

Is your report's approval of the existing GFCIs as code compliant the absence of the negative statement that something is missing or not working? Or, do you state something to the effect that "while not required, increased safety can be achieved with GFCIs in additional locations."Absolutely. This is valuable and necessary information to convey in the HI report. Well, not necessarily.

You see, to me, the HI report that tries to inform how one can improve safety by, say, adding GFCIs in certain locations when they are not required by the codes and ordinances that apply to the specific dwelling, is, in fact, trying to suggest improvements beyond the letter of the law. An HI, being an expert in codes, in this situation, by the weight of his expertise, is almost creating code, especially if the HI report is silent about the current installation being code compliant and that additional GFCIs are not required.

This is very confusing to the non-specialist who is turning to the HI for guidance.

I arrive, having been brought in by the parties that have received such a report, and I get to explain that the GFCIs present are all that are required and that no work is necessary, and then I get to leave, having lost this time, because the HI thought it was good to CYA by over sharing. I'm irritated at the misinformation of the report, and the parties that called me in are left confused. They've spent good money on the HI and have just learned that he was not as sharp as they thought, and then have to wonder and worry about who is right, if any one at all.

And the HI was just trying to make every thing safer for every one.

So, then, this situation, to me, represents the knife's edge. Somehow, the HI needs to convey the state of the electrical system without giving the impression that more than the minimum required by code and ordinance is actually required. This is a subtle art, that, after decades of work, I am still learning. As the "electrical specialist" I'm probably better than the HI, but I can learn from the HI as well.

The challenge for the HI is to call in the specialist at the limit of the individual HI's expertise and knowledge of what local code and ordinance requires, without leaving the person receiving the report overly educated in suggestions that are not code or ordinance.

This is very close to what I would have said if I was better with words, and furthermore:

Are HI's going to start suggesting AFCI's? And how will we handle it when we install them on old wiring and they keep tripping?

 

[readydave8]

GFCI's seem to be a pet peeve of many HI's, if I buy a car old enough not to require airbags should I consider having them installed? However I like the wording where he's mentioning GFCI's without implying that something is wrong with the house, reports I've seen are not always like that, some HI's seem to be saying that wiring is wrong because of lack of GFCI's. And then we get to figure out what to do in an old LCOW box with 4 romexes and conductors shorter than Tom Thumb's toenails. Can be an opportunity, I admit, but can at other times be a headache.

But if I had one suggestion to HI's it would be, try to learn. For example, go to MH forum and ask questions. So this guy is already way ahead of many I've met.

 

[ActionDave]

Well said as always.:thumbsup:

Yeah, Charlie has a way of saying things well.