Home Inspector Questions

[ActionDave]

HRInspector gets an "A" for presentation and attitude.

Agreed as well.

The HI industry has some real bad apples, but to be fair, so does the electrical contracting industry.

But are either of them bad apples, perhaps they are just misunderstood.:roll:

 

[jumper]

But are either of them bad apples, perhaps they are just misunderstood.:roll:

 

[jumper]

Thanks for the replies. As a home inspector I do not use the word code during my inspections or in my reports. I do not want to infer to my client that I am ensuring that a house is code compliant because that is outside the scope of a home inspection. Since GFCI was mentioned a couple of times I will show you what I typically put in my report when there is a lack of GFCI protection. This may change after your review

IMPROVE:Ground Fault Circuit Interrupter (GFCI) protection of home electrical outlets was not provided in the home at locations where it now deemed necessary. Although GFCI protection may not have been required at the time the home was built, for safety reasons, consider upgrading the electrical system to include GFCI protection[for all 15 and 20 amp 120V receptacles] at the following locations: • Bathrooms • Outside • Garages • Crawlspace (at or below grade) • Unfinished basements • Kitchens • Laundry rooms • Within 6 feet of all plumbing fixtures • Boathouses


GFCI protection is available as GFCI circuit breakers or as GFCI outlets. Both devices are designed to trip to prevent electrical shock or electrocution. Consider having GFCI protection installed as a safety precaution.

For what I would consider clarity, I inserted the blue section to your writing above, else one could assume all outlets, 240V and lighting, would need GFCI protection.

In regards to the red I highlighted. Those are a bit broad also, the code is very specific. I am going to quote IRC codes, since I assume you are in VA. The NEC says the same, but the IRC is adopted in VA, so it is actually the code you have to follow.

E3902.6 Kitchen receptacles. All 125-volt, single-phase, 15- and 20-ampere receptacles that serve countertop surfaces shall have ground-fault circuit-interrupter protection for personnel.

E3902.7 Laundry, utility, and bar sink receptacles. All 125-volt, single-phase, 15- and 20-ampere receptacles that are located within 6 feet (1829 mm) of the outside edge of a laundry, utility or wet bar sink shall have ground-fault circuit-interrupter protection for personnel. Receptacle outlets shall not be installed in a face-up position in the work surfaces or countertops.

Also the IRC has this, which is not in the NEC section 210.8, just a minor point I added for FYI.

E3902.10 Electrically heated floors. Ground-fault circuit-interrupter protection for personnel shall be provided for electrically heated floors in bathrooms, and in hydromassage bathtub, spa and hot tub locations.

Here is a link to my code references.http://ecodes.biz/ecodes_support/fr...hapter 39_Power and Lighting Distribution.pdf

 

[jumper]

The only groups that get the "pound sand" approach ....

Well, now I gotta admit: I do tend to argue with them Yankees in MA, whether I am right or wrong (which is usually the case), but that is a different story.

 

[jxofaltrds]

HI's provide a great service. Finding 'safety hazards' when performing a visual inspection, non invasive, serves everyone.

My problem is when HI's put on the hat of an electrician or an electrical inspector. Citing code or implying the "safe" installation of the electrical system.

Some states, like mine, have rules on who can do what.

Example:

3783.06 Certificate required.


No person shall engage in the practice of electrical inspection in this state unless he is the holder of a certificate of competency as an electrical safety inspector issued under Chapter 3783. of the Revised Code. Any person practicing or offering to practice electrical inspection shall show proof of his certification upon request as provided by rules of the board of building standards.

Effective Date: 03-22-1973


http://codes.ohio.gov/orc/3783.06

 

[kwired]

HI's provide a great service. Finding 'safety hazards' when performing a visual inspection, non invasive, serves everyone.

My problem is when HI's put on the hat of an electrician or an electrical inspector. Citing code or implying the "safe" installation of the electrical system.

Some states, like mine, have rules on who can do what.

Example:

3783.06 Certificate required.


No person shall engage in the practice of electrical inspection in this state unless he is the holder of a certificate of competency as an electrical safety inspector issued under Chapter 3783. of the Revised Code. Any person practicing or offering to practice electrical inspection shall show proof of his certification upon request as provided by rules of the board of building standards.

Effective Date: 03-22-1973


http://codes.ohio.gov/orc/3783.06

Along with that needs to be a definition of what electrical inspection means as it applies to the regulation.

The common usage definition of the electrical and inspection can be taken many ways otherwise. I am not a certified electrical inspector, I do inspect electrical items when installing or repairing those items.

What the typical HI does generally is not considered the same thing as what a local or state "electrical inspector" does either, but there is some similarity in what they do.

 

[HRInspector]

For what I would consider clarity, I inserted the blue section to your writing above, else one could assume all outlets, 240V and lighting, would need GFCI protection.

In regards to the red I highlighted. Those are a bit broad also, the code is very specific. I am going to quote IRC codes, since I assume you are in VA. The NEC says the same, but the IRC is adopted in VA, so it is actually the code you have to follow.

Thanks for the link. I have made the changes you highlighted in blue. As for being broad, and maybe I am wrong for thinking this way, as a home inspector I am providing the broad brush approach. My goal is not to provide the client code and have them do the work themselves.

The great majority of the issues I see are when homeowners do their own work. I have walked into flipped houses and see the "Black and Decker Complete Guide to Home Wiring" laying around. This is what the flipper is using to repair and try to upgrade electrical systems.

By staying a little more broad in my report and always recommending a licensed electrical contractor I am trying to ensure that it gets done right.

 

[jumper]

Thanks for the link. I have made the changes you highlighted in blue. As for being broad, and maybe I am wrong for thinking this way, as a home inspector I am providing the broad brush approach. My goal is not to provide the client code and have them do the work themselves.

The great majority of the issues I see are when homeowners do their own work. I have walked into flipped houses and see the "Black and Decker Complete Guide to Home Wiring" laying around. This is what the flipper is using to repair and try to upgrade electrical systems.

By staying a little more broad in my report and always recommending a licensed electrical contractor I am trying to ensure that it gets done right.

My point regarding broad was that I feel that the receptacles in a kitchen, laundry area, or other sinks should be a bit more refined. Otherwise just saying kitchen would mean all general receptacles and not just the countertops. The same with the laundry/sinks.

As far far as plumbing fixtures, I could interpret that to me anything from a faucet to a water heater to a water filter. Too broad.

One thing I will tell as you join our forum, we are completely anal about exact wording. I tell you this to be helpful, not to be a jerk. I think coming here for the right answers is great and I welcome you as all the rest did.

I hope this clears up what I meant.

PS. I am buying a house and have a certified HI doing an inspection.

 

[al hildenbrand]

Thanks for the replies. As a home inspector I do not use the word code during my inspections or in my reports. I do not want to infer to my client that I am ensuring that a house is code compliant because that is outside the scope of a home inspection . . . . my end game is to learn and provide my clients with the best information I can.

. . . as a home inspector I am providing the broad brush approach. My goal is not to provide the client code and have them do the work themselves.

I guess I am spoiled by jurisdictions that have what are called Truth-In-Sale-Of-Housing home inspection reports that give M for "meets requirements", B for "below minimum requirements", and H for "hazard". The rating is given to line items on a room by room by area basis. Any one room will have five to ten line items. Only "B" and "H" have comments appended to them, and the comments explain the deficiency or problem in a few words. At the end of the report will be a list of required repairs and a list of permit required repairs.

The "M", which, again, has no explanation attached, attests that, based upon a non-invasive visual inspection, the observed item, room or area meets or exceeds the minimum Code requirements that apply to this specific dwelling at the time of inspection. It is a rare dwelling that is inspected to a "new construction" Code. Almost always the existing dwelling was constructed under older Codes and standards and may, or may not, have some local ordinance that dictates certain minimum improvements should be in place (smoke detection and/or CO detection are examples).

The home inspection may be done prior to Listing the property for sale, in which case the document is private to the party paying for it. Accountability for the required work is vague prior to listing. A Truth-In-Sale-Of-Housing report is required to filed with the property for public access at the beginning of the Listing for Sale of the property, and is part of the legal documents that are part of the transition of ownership. Permit Required Repairs must be documented during the listing for sale and as part of the transfer of ownership.

So the purpose of the HI, in doing the inspection, is to attest to the code compliance of the structure, to a limited extent established by local ordinance.

I get the sense that it is more common for the HI to define his/her own rules and regulations and to be largely independent.

 

[macmikeman]

I have one more point to add here which draws me in from planet macmikeman on one of its orbits around the sun.

Those voltage drop testers that plug into electrical receptacle outlets that HI's are fond of using, may show that under a given full load of 15 or 20 amps the general purpose receptacle outlet circuits in a dwelling may drop more than the desired "less than 3 %" (not a code requirement). They are not exactly a true representation of unsafe conditions many times, but the readings can be misleading and tend to show up as red flags in the reports. The reason I say they are misleading sometimes is because many HI's do not realize that general purpose lighting and receptacle outlet circuits most often never ever get fully loaded, and in usual use will not have a voltage drop that exceeds 3%. I have seen many inspection reports that had raised big issues with the voltage drop flags due to the readings they got using that tool, that were not necessarily a "real" issue at all. However in just as many instances I realize that many times there are installations where no thought was given at all to the possibility of voltage drop concerns, and the home runs are way too long for the wire size run, especially in the modern McMansions popular in the ninety's.

Ok, back up to planet macmikeman.

 

[jumper]

I have one more point to add here which draws me in from planet macmikeman on one of its orbits around the sun.

Those voltage drop testers that plug into electrical receptacle outlets that HI's are fond of using, may show that under a given full load of 15 or 20 amps the general purpose receptacle outlet circuits in a dwelling may drop more than the desired "less than 3 %" (not a code requirement). They are not exactly a true representation of unsafe conditions many times, but the readings can be misleading and tend to show up as red flags in the reports. The reason I say they are misleading sometimes is because many HI's do not realize that general purpose lighting and receptacle outlet circuits most often never ever get fully loaded, and in usual use will not have a voltage drop that exceeds 3%. I have seen many inspection reports that had raised big issues with the voltage drop flags due to the readings they got using that tool, that were not necessarily a "real" issue at all. However in just as many instances I realize that many times there are installations where no thought was given at all to the possibility of voltage drop concerns, and the home runs are way too long for the wire size run, especially in the modern McMansions popular in the ninety's.

Ok, back up to planet macmikeman.

As long as an HI justs reports this fact I see no reason that it is a big deal to include it. If it was said that is was a violation, I would have a beef, but if simply stated as a fact-legal IMO.

 

[HRInspector]

I guess I am spoiled by jurisdictions that have what are called Truth-In-Sale-Of-Housing home inspection reports that give M for "meets requirements", B for "below minimum requirements", and H for "hazard". The rating is given to line items on a room by room by area basis. Any one room will have five to ten line items. Only "B" and "H" have comments appended to them, and the comments explain the deficiency or problem in a few words. At the end of the report will be a list of required repairs and a list of permit required repairs.

By broad brush, which I think was a poor choice in words, I mean I am not telling a client you need to install GFCI, here, here, and here. The GFCI statement I posted was an FYI for clients that deem it prudent to upgrade. It is rare that I find lack of GFCI in required areas at the time the house was built. I do find it at some additions.

My reports do not tell clients that a house must have GFCI protection if it wasn't required. It is an IMPROVE item that they decide for themselves whether they wish to have the work done. The general comment for "kitchen" lets them know when they speak to their electrical contractor that they want to have GFCI's installed in the kitchen. The electrical contractor knows where they need to be located.

On a side note, since everything I get from you all is continued education is this the appropriate subject heading to put future inquiries.

 

[jumper]

.

On a side note, since everything I get from you all is continued education is this the appropriate subject heading to put future inquiries.

We are not that picky, other than safety, hazardous locations and exam prep forums, no one really cares. NEC or CEU is usually a good choice though.

Add:not in UL proposals is good also, no worry to any of the above, the mods will move it as necessary.

 

[al hildenbrand]

. . . I am not telling a client you need to install GFCI, here, here, and here. The GFCI statement I posted was an FYI for clients that deem it prudent to upgrade.

What I am addressing in my comments, more than anything, is the very presence of the FYI type of comments.

The Truth-In-Sale-Of-Housing reports I describe above have none of that "additional" safety info. To the lay seller and buyer and the realtors, bankers and insurance people the nuance that the MAINTENANCE, IMPROVE & FYI is not a code requirement gets confusing at best, if not outright lost. The confusion in the principal people associated with the sale of a house, as it relates to the electrical system, is a source of lost time to me, of unbillable hours.

The HI is given power by those who hire them, the power to report on the code worthiness of the building. All that the HI reports is imbued with that power by the non technical consumer of the report, and the little printed disclaimers in the legend for the ratings will get completely lost. Good in court, but confusing otherwise.

 

[jxofaltrds]

Along with that needs to be a definition of what electrical inspection means as it applies to the regulation.

The common usage definition of the electrical and inspection can be taken many ways otherwise. I am not a certified electrical inspector, I do inspect electrical items when installing or repairing those items.

What the typical HI does generally is not considered the same thing as what a local or state "electrical inspector" does either, but there is some similarity in what they do.

(B) The ?practice of electrical inspection? includes any ascertainment of compliance with the Ohio building code, or the electrical code of a political subdivision of this state by a person, who, for compensation, inspects the construction and installation of electrical conductors, fittings, devices, and fixtures for light, heat or power services equipment, or the installation, alteration, replacement, maintenance, or repair of any electrical wiring and equipment that is subject to any of the aforementioned codes.

http://codes.ohio.gov/orc/3783.01

Pretty hard to say anything without citing code!

 

[John120/240]

All good points so far. Keyless in closets might have been OK in 1900 but don't let it slide

today. It should be an easy fix, use a enclosed fixture with a pull chain as part of fixture.

Don't add up the values on the breaker handles then claim the panel is overloaded.

 

[hurk27]

(B) The “practice of electrical inspection” includes any ascertainment of compliance with the Ohio building code, or the electrical code of a political subdivision of this state by a person, who, for compensation, inspects the construction and installation of electrical conductors, fittings, devices, and fixtures for light, heat or power services equipment, or the installation, alteration, replacement, maintenance, or repair of any electrical wiring and equipment that is subject to any of the aforementioned codes.

http://codes.ohio.gov/orc/3783.01

Pretty hard to say anything without citing code!

While a building official doing building code compliance inspections on new work will be referencing codes and law as part of his job, a HI or home inspector doing home inspections for buyers or real estate company's will or should only be looking for safety and usage/wear or failure type problems such as modified DYS wiring, plumbing, HVAC and such, Now they do or should be addressing requirements that lenders or backers of lenders require such as HUD, FHA, And or VA require that can stop the backing of a loan if this is in their scope of work (as in some ares these entities have their own inspectors), another item would be pointing out things that insurance companies might not insure a home if known, like how far is the house from a fire hydrant, does the hone have fuses instead of breakers as these are just informational points that should be mentioned but never a requirement as there are insurance company's that will not have a problem with it.
For the most part the home inspection is more of just a check to make sure there are not any unsafe wiring and or structure problems and can even include looking for signs of rodent or termite infestation, roof condition and how many layers, attic insulations levels, deteriorations in things that normally wear out, like windows not operable or so loose in there track they no longer seal the outside air out, foundation cracking and or on the verge of failing, water flowing away from the building, plumbing problems, leaks.

So in a nut shell an HI inspector is more looking at the condition of the property rather then looking for code compliance, other then safety problems like fuse tampering or improper DYS wiring or plumbing.

We had a local city inspector who thought it would be a good side job to also do home inspections but got his butt in a wringer when he started calling out everything that older homes did not meet to todays requirements, and then tried to use his authority as the city inspector to try to enforce these requirements, so our state found him to be in conflict of interest and he was forced to resign as the city inspector, so there is a big difference between a code official who is an officer of the law and a home inspector who is not.

 

[jumper]

We had a local city inspector who thought it would be a good side job to also do home inspections but got his butt in a wringer when he started calling out everything that older homes did not meet to todays requirements, and then tried to use his authority as the city inspector to try to enforce these requirements, so our state found him to be in conflict of interest and he was forced to resign as the city inspector, so there is a big difference between a code official who is an officer of the law and a home inspector who is not.

It is good that he was punished. I have no problem with an inspector being an EC, HI, or consultant as long as that work is not did in his/her jurisdiction.

 

[jxofaltrds]

"So in a nut shell an HI inspector is more looking at the condition of the property rather then looking for code compliance, other then safety problems like fuse tampering or improper DYS wiring or plumbing."

Exactly.

 

[kwired]

"So in a nut shell an HI inspector is more looking at the condition of the property rather then looking for code compliance, other then safety problems like fuse tampering or improper DYS wiring or plumbing."

Exactly.

IMO if he is a HI that looks at plumbing, electrical, structural integrity, and other things like that, all he should do is generate a list of concerns that may need checked out by other professionals and not necessarily even offer any suggestions as far as possible remedies to a potential problem.

If he is inspecting electrical only - he is a little more specialized in what he does and maybe even is an electrical contractor, then it may be acceptable to offer possible solutions to problems.