400 amp service

[big vic]

Just put the 2 200 amp panels inside with just the meter base outside and feed the 100 amp sub from one of the 200 amp panels. Why put an eyesore of disconnects outside

 

[stickboy1375]

Just put the 2 200 amp panels inside with just the meter base outside and feed the 100 amp sub from one of the 200 amp panels. Why put an eyesore of disconnects outside

Thats the way I always do it, not really a big deal.

 

[hurk27]

I have no idea where anyone can think that installing a combo meter main breaker panel and feeders to an out building is going to be cheaper then just double or tripple lugging a 320 meter and running just SEC's to the out building:?

I set this service about a week ago and it will have triple lugs which along with the 100 and 200 amp disconnect it will feed a 100 amp panel in the storage buildings in back of this building:

This is the same building that I had questions on the firewall in the other thread.

the 320 meter $125.00 Milbank w/bypass
100 amp disconnect: $46.00
200 amp disconnect: $78.00
Feeders to out building well you price 3-wire verses 4-wire and tell me which one is cheaper.

Getting local inspector to stick to state codes: Priceless:lol:

 

[hurk27]

Just put the 2 200 amp panels inside with just the meter base outside and feed the 100 amp sub from one of the 200 amp panels. Why put an eyesore of disconnects outside

Actually if you read post 4 you don't need any disconnects outside just the 320 meter if you locate two 200 amp main breaker panels just inside and feed SEC's from an extra meter lug to the out building, no disconnect needed at the house for the out building and you only need a 3-conductor instead of a 4-wire feeder because they will still be service entrance conductors, done all the time.

In the above post photo's the reason I chosen to put both disconnects outside was because of space limitation on the other side of that wall, but I could have located a 200 amp main breaker panel and the 100 amp disconnect just inside and all you would have seen out side is the meter and maybe a LB into the back of the 200 amp,the 100 amp runs up stairs to feed the dwelling part of this building.

 

[stickboy1375]

I have no idea where anyone can think that installing a combo meter main breaker panel and feeders to an out building is going to be cheaper then just double or tripple lugging a 320 meter and running just SEC's to the out building:?

[/IMG]
:

I could never do that on a house, its uglier than death, no offense....

 

[texie]

I have no idea where anyone can think that installing a combo meter main breaker panel and feeders to an out building is going to be cheaper then just double or tripple lugging a 320 meter and running just SEC's to the out building:?

I set this service about a week ago and it will have triple lugs which along with the 100 and 200 amp disconnect it will feed a 100 amp panel in the storage buildings in back of this building:

This is the same building that I had questions on the firewall in the other thread.

the 320 meter $125.00 Milbank w/bypass
100 amp disconnect: $46.00
200 amp disconnect: $78.00
Feeders to out building well you price 3-wire verses 4-wire and tell me which one is cheaper.

Getting local inspector to stick to state codes: Priceless:lol:

Off topic a little, please forgive. I note your service is installed before the finish surface is installed. That's also common practice here and in most areas, but I am certain it is not compliant with 3R gear. The reason I mention it is we went through this in another jurisdiction some years back and they put a complete stop to it. It created big dustup with everyone. But otherwise of course your install looks nice.

 

[stickboy1375]

Off topic a little, please forgive. I note your service is installed before the finish surface is installed. That's also common practice here and in most areas, but I am certain it is not compliant with 3R gear. The reason I mention it is we went through this in another jurisdiction some years back and they put a complete stop to it. It created big dustup with everyone. But otherwise of course your install looks nice.

I was going to mention it as well, why not just install siding blocks behind the equipment and let them side to that?

 

[GearMan]

I have no idea where anyone can think that installing a combo meter main breaker panel and feeders to an out building is going to be cheaper then just double or tripple lugging a 320 meter and running just SEC's to the out building:?

Nothing wrong with your install, just a little more labor. Been there, done that, for many years. First time I gave the owner the choice & a little upsell, he liked the look and design much better. That caught on and is now the preferred method in our area for large homes. Price has not been an issue.

 

[hurk27]

I could never do that on a house, its uglier than death, no offense....

the owner is having stone up that wall and they are making a door with a stone face to cover it, the placement wasn't my chioce as this is right on the front of the building but that was the only place the utility would allow it as it is closest to the pole without going under the parking lot or concrete, and it is what it is? while I would have put both the 100 amp and 200 amp inside but as I use main breaker panels anyways as around here they are cheaper but to group the 100 amp inside would have caused problems for the HVAC installers, which the 200 amp panel was already moved out of the furnace room because of lack of work space rule.

 

[stickboy1375]

the owner is having stone up that wall and they are making a door with a stone face to cover it, the placement wasn't my chioce as this is right on the front of the building but that was the only place the utility would allow it as it is closest to the pole without going under the parking lot or concrete, and it is what it is? while I would have put both the 100 amp and 200 amp inside but as I use main breaker panels anyways as around here they are cheaper but to group the 100 amp inside would have caused problems for the HVAC installers, which the 200 amp panel was already moved out of the furnace room because of lack of work space rule.

I would have done the same, believe me! Im just saying, in my world of endless funds for new yorkers with 2nd homes, I could never even think of that install....

 

[hurk27]

Off topic a little, please forgive. I note your service is installed before the finish surface is installed. That's also common practice here and in most areas, but I am certain it is not compliant with 3R gear. The reason I mention it is we went through this in another jurisdiction some years back and they put a complete stop to it. It created big dustup with everyone. But otherwise of course your install looks nice.

Can you site a code or UL requirement that doesn't allow R-3 enclosures to be sub mounted? ever see a Florida or California service, they are totally in the outside wall with only the cover exposed?

Like I said this will be getting stone up the wall so the only part that will be showing will most likely be just the cover, with a stone faced hinged cover over it.

 

[hurk27]

I have no idea where anyone can think that installing a combo meter main breaker panel and feeders to an out building is going to be cheaper then just double or triple lugging a 320 meter and running just SEC's to the out building:?

Nothing wrong with your install, just a little more labor. Been there, done that, for many years. First time I gave the owner the choice & a little upsell, he liked the look and design much better. That caught on and is now the preferred method in our area for large homes. Price has not been an issue.

well here most high end homes get pedestals with main breakers but about all that is available anymore is 4 space ones, with a 320 meter, but with a $1400.00 price tag just for the pedestal the owner opted for this in a heartbeat.

Like you we did one pedestal service and it spread like wildfire everyone want them, but they are pricey even if they do look nice, no exposed pipes running down.

 

[kwired]

Off topic a little, please forgive. I note your service is installed before the finish surface is installed. That's also common practice here and in most areas, but I am certain it is not compliant with 3R gear. The reason I mention it is we went through this in another jurisdiction some years back and they put a complete stop to it. It created big dustup with everyone. But otherwise of course your install looks nice.

Why is it a problem with the 3R electrical equipment? You could put that same equipment in the middle of yard on a post and it is still 3R equipment. Having 1/4 inch space behind the equipment could be a problem - but will really depend on how the siding meets up with the gear.

Problems with weatherization of the building I can understand.

Regardless the best install is to make accomodations to allow installing something behind it besides housewrap.
Wood wrapped in trim coil works pretty good and can be customized to fit behind your equipment instead of some big siding block - but even those are a good choice sometimes.

 

[texie]

Can you site a code or UL requirement that doesn't allow R-3 enclosures to be sub mounted? ever see a Florida or California service, they are totally in the outside wall with only the cover exposed?

Like I said this will be getting stone up the wall so the only part that will be showing will most likely be just the cover, with a stone faced hinged cover over it.

As a matter of fact the AHJ was Miami-Dade County in Florida. We also did the recessed thing you mention. They banned the recessing and went even further, decreeing that it must be ontop of the finished surface. Don't remember the exact code reference, but it is about the 1/4" rule. They made the GC get the stucco guys there early and do just that area of the wall so we could install our gear.

 

[stickboy1375]

As a matter of fact the AHJ was Miami-Dade County in Florida. We also did the recessed thing you mention. They banned the recessing and went even further, decreeing that it must be ontop of the finished surface. Don't remember the exact code reference, but it is about the 1/4" rule. They made the GC get the stucco guys there early and do just that area of the wall so we could install our gear.

thats messed up, the 1/4" is still intact, the only issue I have, is replacing the gear once it fails and it's recessed into stone...:thumbsdown:

 

[hurk27]

As a matter of fact the AHJ was Miami-Dade County in Florida. We also did the recessed thing you mention. They banned the recessing and went even further, decreeing that it must be ontop of the finished surface. Don't remember the exact code reference, but it is about the 1/4" rule. They made the GC get the stucco guys there early and do just that area of the wall so we could install our gear.

Well then that is a local interpretation of a code rule that doesn't even say anything like that.

See 312.2:

I. Installation
312.2 Damp and Wet Locations. In damp or wet locations,
surface-type enclosures within the scope of this article
shall be placed or equipped so as to prevent moisture
or water from entering and accumulating within the cabinet
or cutout box, and shall be mounted so there is at least
6-mm (1⁄4-in.) airspace between the enclosure and the wall
or other supporting surface. Enclosures installed in wet locations
shall be weatherproof. For enclosures in wet locations,
raceways or cables entering above the level of uninsulated
live parts shall use fittings listed for wet locations.

It is still mounted with a 1/4" space behind it, and also the wall finish will seal against any moisture from getting in back of it otherwise there will be other problems, this section goes on to say if the cabinet is recessed it can be flush or projected from the surface:

312.3 Position in Wall. In walls of concrete, tile, or other
noncombustible material, cabinets shall be installed so that
the front edge of the cabinet is not set back of the finished
surface more than 6 mm (1⁄4 in.). In walls constructed of
wood or other combustible material, cabinets shall be flush
with the finished surface or project there from.

So someone didn't do their home work when they wrote this building code.

 

[kwired]

and also the wall finish will seal against any moisture from getting in back of it otherwise there will be other problems, this section goes on to say if the cabinet is recessed it can be flush or projected from the surface:

I almost said something to that effect in my previous post. 1/4 inch space behind is not necessary if it is sealed off from the weather. 1/4 inch is not enough space sometimes - if you do work in food processing plants where they wash things all the time - it is one of the worst problem areas for them with potential bacteria growth - they would rather seal it completely or put more space so it is easier to wash.

 

[hurk27]

I almost said something to that effect in my previous post. 1/4 inch space behind is not necessary if it is sealed off from the weather. 1/4 inch is not enough space sometimes - if you do work in food processing plants where they wash things all the time - it is one of the worst problem areas for them with potential bacteria growth - they would rather seal it completely or put more space so it is easier to wash.

I agree, the only time I have seen a panel or EMT rot out was where dirt and moisture can accumulate between it and a wall, as the dirt holds the moisture against the metal.

 

[texie]

Well then that is a local interpretation of a code rule that doesn't even say anything like that.

See 312.2:



It is still mounted with a 1/4" space behind it, and also the wall finish will seal against any moisture from getting in back of it otherwise there will be other problems, this section goes on to say if the cabinet is recessed it can be flush or projected from the surface:



So someone didn't do their home work when they wrote this building code.

Don't shoot me, I'm just the piano player. I seem to recall that there was a determination that it violated the listing. It ruffled a lot of feathers at the time.

 

[hurk27]

Don't shoot me, I'm just the piano player. I seem to recall that there was a determination that it violated the listing. It ruffled a lot of feathers at the time.

Oh quit the contrary as I was hoping you had something on this as I'm here to learn also, while I have never heard of any such requirement or listing, panels, meter cabinets, and many other type cabinets and box's have been buried in walls for years and was a very normal install for block walls as well as adobe or gunite, even brick, or stucco, and just as was said above because many home owners do not like the look of equipment on the outside of a few million dollar houses so the more it is hidden the happier they are.

That is why I posted the code to the contrary.