Switching - on plans vs. how it's installed

[apelk]

In school and in my first job (consulting), we showed on plan our three-way and four-way switches connecting into the nearest light that was on that switch circuit. I did not realize that the tracers/travelers were just run between switches and not in the same path as the circuiting to lights.

At my new job, they show the switches connected to each other and then only one connection to the lights. This gets complicated when your switches are far apart and there are lots of things going on in between (however, they were showing 5-way, 6-way switches, with little wire whips coming from them, because they did not understand the switching diagrams, thought the numbers were based on number of switching locations).

Question: Is there anything wrong with showing it the way I did in school and in my first job, even though that's not really how it ends up being installed? Does it confuse contractors at all? That is my boss's concern, that we would be showing it how it's not really going to be installed. As contractors, what do you usually see on plans?

 

[cowboyjwc]

You draw it and show S3 or S4 and which lights you want it to control and I'll figure out the rest.:happyyes:

 

[apelk]

That's my thought... why not show it connecting to the nearest light even if it's not? It's cleaner to draw and clear which switches are controlling which lights. It's not like you're going to get confused

 

[stickboy1375]

That's my thought... why not show it connecting to the nearest light even if it's not? It's cleaner to draw and clear which switches are controlling which lights. It's not like you're going to get confused

Do I have to run my wires the way they are drawn?

 

[Speshulk]

In school and in my first job (consulting), we showed on plan our three-way and four-way switches connecting into the nearest light that was on that switch circuit. I did not realize that the tracers/travelers were just run between switches and not in the same path as the circuiting to lights.

At my new job, they show the switches connected to each other and then only one connection to the lights. This gets complicated when your switches are far apart and there are lots of things going on in between (however, they were showing 5-way, 6-way switches, with little wire whips coming from them, because they did not understand the switching diagrams, thought the numbers were based on number of switching locations).

Question: Is there anything wrong with showing it the way I did in school and in my first job, even though that's not really how it ends up being installed? Does it confuse contractors at all? That is my boss's concern, that we would be showing it how it's not really going to be installed. As contractors, what do you usually see on plans?

If someone is drawing things that don't exist like 5-ways and 6-ways, they should put down the shovel and step away from the hole. Why do we as professionals have to deal with drawings done by someone with no clue? It sounds like your current company should call your past employer and sub out the drawing of the electrical plans to them.

 

[kennydmeek]

A neutral in every switch box!...a chicken in every pot!

 

[jeremysterling]

If someone is drawing things that don't exist like 5-ways and 6-ways, they should put down the shovel and step away from the hole. Why do we as professionals have to deal with drawings done by someone with no clue? It sounds like your current company should call your past employer and sub out the drawing of the electrical plans to them.

If you think "someone" is the OP, you need to look at his profile. He is a professional and he is asking a valid question.

In today's complex switching schemes, it is up to the EC to provide record drawings (as-builts) that show traveller piping and j-boxes for their, yes, I'll say it, 5- and 6-way switches. EC's also show power-pack, relay and contactor box locations on as-builts.

So, go ahead DoubleE and draw like you see it, like cowboyjwc says, we'll figure it out.

 

[Speshulk]

If you think "someone" is the OP, you need to look at his profile. He is a professional and he is asking a valid question.

In today's complex switching schemes, it is up to the EC to provide record drawings (as-builts) that show traveller piping and j-boxes for their, yes, I'll say it, 5- and 6-way switches. EC's also show power-pack, relay and contactor box locations on as-builts.

So, go ahead DoubleE and draw like you see it, like cowboyjwc says, we'll figure it out.

If I had meant him, I would have said, "you," not, "someone." It sounds to me like he has a grasp of what should be drawn and his new employer doesn't.

Next time you're at a supply house, ask them to give you a price quote on a 5-way or 6-way.

 

[480sparky]

The plans only need to show the circuit number and where the lights & switches go. A true pro can figure it out from there.

 

[jeremysterling]

If I had meant him, I would have said, "you," not, "someone." It sounds to me like he has a grasp of what should be drawn and his new employer doesn't.

Of course. I am sorry. I realized that only after the edit function had expired on my post. My apologies for misinterpreting your comment. His new employer should consider themselves fortunate to have the OP on board.

Next time you're at a supply house, ask them to give you a price quote on a 5-way or 6-way.

If they have any snap, they will add up the price of (2) 3-way switches and (x-2) 4-way switches.

 

[kwired]

In school and in my first job (consulting), we showed on plan our three-way and four-way switches connecting into the nearest light that was on that switch circuit. I did not realize that the tracers/travelers were just run between switches and not in the same path as the circuiting to lights.

At my new job, they show the switches connected to each other and then only one connection to the lights. This gets complicated when your switches are far apart and there are lots of things going on in between (however, they were showing 5-way, 6-way switches, with little wire whips coming from them, because they did not understand the switching diagrams, thought the numbers were based on number of switching locations).

Question: Is there anything wrong with showing it the way I did in school and in my first job, even though that's not really how it ends up being installed? Does it confuse contractors at all? That is my boss's concern, that we would be showing it how it's not really going to be installed. As contractors, what do you usually see on plans?

Is your drawing showing actual raceway or cable routing or just showing major component locations? Once you answer that question draw accordingly. If you are just showing major component locations then the installer is figuring out the rest of the details.

 

[tkb]

I prefer to see just the switch symbol, S, S₃, S₄, and a lower case letter next to it that matches a letter next to the fixtures that it controls, if it is not obvious.

Forget the circuit lines, I will figure it out, just put the circuit number next to one of the fixtures.

 

[Speshulk]

I prefer to see just the switch symbol, S, S₃, S₄, and a lower case letter next to it that matches a letter next to the fixtures that it controls, if it is not obvious.

Forget the circuit lines, I will figure it out, just put the circuit number next to one of the fixtures.

I just completed a bid on a set of plans that were drawn like that. It really simplified the way three way switching between floors was drawn. The only drawback I see with that way of doing it (and it's a minor drawback) is the occasional typo.

 

[Smart $]

Is your drawing showing actual raceway or cable routing or just showing major component locations? Once you answer that question draw accordingly. ...

I agree... to a degree. IMO, drawing actual raceway or cable routing should only reflect a necessity for such, and seldom is this the case for area lighting.

 

[Smart $]

... I did not realize that the tracers/travelers were just run between switches and not in the same path as the circuiting to lights.

...

Only true sometimes. Not always. In my experience, I'm guessing less than 50% of the time on commercial jobs.

 

[cadpoint]

I?ll just defer to the Merriam Webster and their definition of;

Synonym Discussion of PLAN plan, design, plot, scheme, project mean a method devised for making or doing something or achieving an end. plan always implies mental formulation and sometimes graphic representation <plans for a house>.

The full definition of plan is here


Good Luck in your new job.

 

[nymike]

keep it simple

keep it simple

stick to the S, S3,,S4 method , this is what we are all acustomed to . showing switches,wires connecting to lights are nice but showing circuit #s is just fine ,, and will work, just the same

S5 , and S6 those devices just dont exist, lets not reinvent the wheel

 

[K8MHZ]

stick to the S, S3,,S4 method , this is what we are all acustomed to . showing switches,wires connecting to lights are nice but showing circuit #s is just fine ,, and will work, just the same

S5 , and S6 those devices just dont exist, lets not reinvent the wheel

I got some plans that had S5, S6, etc. Then I saw the lights were labeled L5, L6, etc.

Actually it wasn't a bad scheme once I got used to it, especially when there were multiple light circuits in a room.

 

[apelk]

Hey thanks for all the replies! After a couple of hours, I gave up on staring at the screen waiting for replies (much like waiting by the phone for the boys to call in 7th grade - female here, by the way). Just happened to come back to it now.

The other new electrical and I are going to be re-vamping standards so it's good to get some feedback on different ways of showing things. I like the sound of just putting the circuit number and tagging the switches/lights accordingly. I draw the arcs to show which lights control which switches, not intending to show how to route conduit.

Yeah, I didn't think 5-way or 6-way switches existed unless maybe we're talking about another industry.

 

[renosteinke]

This thread, my friends, shows just how different the electrical trade is from the HVAC trade.

Had this question been posted at an HVAC forum, the unanimous answer would have been 'put it in as they drew it, then charge them for the change order to make it work.'