main house breaker panel wiring question

[jimmy_mcquade]

Hi all,

I went with dad to middle TN to look at some new houses because dad's new job is causing him to move.
we went to a brand new house and the main panel was off the breaker box and this is what i saw.

it was a siemens 200 amp box with the standard breakers for everything.

there was a 25 amp breaker for the hot water heater which i thought was odd.

the biggest thing i saw was that the electrician had the neutral wires connected to the ground.
i even looked twice.

the panel looked real nice wiring wise, but isn't this a code violation?

i thought you had to place all grounds on the ground bar and the neutrals on the neutral bar.
have i missed something?

thanks in advance,
jimmy

 

[Microwatt]

If this is the main panel that contains the Main Bonding jumper than the neutral and grounds can be on the same bars although may not be the best practice. If this is a sub-panel they must be seperate.

The hot water heater may have a label stating the max OCPD that can be used is 25 amps and that would explain the 25a breaker.

 

[jxofaltrds]

If you mean under the same lug then yes it is a violation.

Is this unsafe? NO! I say no because it is a resy application.

 

[augie47]

what microwatt said about the mix... if its a service panel they need not be separated.

There was a Code cycle a few years back that limited the hot water heater overcurrent in such a manner than 25 amp breakers were the max for a 4500 watt hot water heater.
That provision was later changed, but 25 amp breakers on hot water heaters are still "standard" for some folks who never realized the requirement is no longer in the Code.

 

[jimmy_mcquade]

Yes, this is the main panel from the power company.

I'm still learning the terminology, so let me explain some more.
we have the two main power wires creating 220 volts, we also had a neutral, and the ground wire.

the ground wire was connected to the bar on the left and the neutral wire was connected to the bar on the right.
i looked for a connecting wire / bar, but didn't find one.

could these bars be connected via the circuit breaker housing?

thanks again,
jimmy

 

[jxofaltrds]

Yes, this is the main panel from the power company.

I'm still learning the terminology, so let me explain some more.
we have the two main power wires creating 220 volts, we also had a neutral, and the ground wire.

the ground wire was connected to the bar on the left and the neutral wire was connected to the bar on the right.
i looked for a connecting wire / bar, but didn't find one.

could these bars be connected via the circuit breaker housing?

thanks again,
jimmy

Now what you are saying is different. So you have four wires? H-H-N-G?

If so they must not be connected.

 

[jim dungar]

I'm still learning the terminology, so let me explain some more.
we have the two main power wires creating 220 volts, we also had a neutral, and the ground wire.

Trying not to be too petty, but the correct terminology is 240V. And the system you were looking at is 120/240V (adding 'single phase' or '1Ph 3W' is helpful)
I know old habits are hard to break, but 240V has been the nominal rating, in the NEC, for at more than 35 years.
See the definition of Voltage, nominal which refers you to some ANSI specs, for additional reference look at 220.5.

 

[jxofaltrds]

Trying not to be too petty,

He's been here since 2008. So let him have it. LOL

 

[Microwatt]

Now what you are saying is different. So you have four wires? H-H-N-G?

If so they must not be connected.

The ground wire could be the GEC and therefore the wires could be landed on the same bus.

Jimmy - Yes it is possible to be connected through the "housing". It might even just be a green screw that would connect one of the bars to the housing itself.

 

[infinity]

No photo? :?

 

[masterinbama]

If it's a Siemens panel they connect together behind the breaker pan.

 

[jimmy_mcquade]

It is definitely a siemens panel, same as dad's.

So even though its not a good practice to do it, dad could have an electrician go in and fix his jumbled up wiring in his box
by placing the grounds and neutrals on the same terminal rail, just not under the same terminal?

it would sure look a lot neater, but i doubt he will do it since its already in place and has been there for 5 years.

thanks for the replies,
jimmy.

 

[kwired]

If the 2nd ground bus is connected to 1st bus via the can it can be used for equipment grounding only. If there is a bar between them they are essentially the same bus.

A typical residential water heater is 4500 watts 240 volts. This draws 18.75 amps. 422.13 says they are to be treated as continuous loads so multiply that by 1.25 and you get 23.44 amps. That is under standard size or 25 amps so there is absoulutely nothing wrong with using 25 amp breaker.

 

[Little Bill]

It is definitely a siemens panel, same as dad's.

So even though its not a good practice to do it, dad could have an electrician go in and fix his jumbled up wiring in his box
by placing the grounds and neutrals on the same terminal rail, just not under the same terminal?

it would sure look a lot neater, but i doubt he will do it since its already in place and has been there for 5 years.

thanks for the replies,
jimmy.

If it's the first disconnect with OCP (breakers) it is the service panel. The neutrals and grounds are fine on the same bar. IMO, it's not a bad practice in a residential panel to do so. It sometimes keeps you from having to add a ground bar kit just to land the bare grounding conductors on.

Middle Tennessee- Did you ask permission before coming to my back yard?

 

[Coastal]

Yes, this is the main panel from the power company.

I'm still learning the terminology, so let me explain some more.
we have the two main power wires creating 220 volts, we also had a neutral, and the ground wire.

the ground wire was connected to the bar on the left and the neutral wire was connected to the bar on the right.
i looked for a connecting wire / bar, but didn't find one.

could these bars be connected via the circuit breaker housing?

thanks again,
jimmy

Sounds to me as correct wiring given it is a Seimens panel which usually come with a copper connecting rod that connects the right and left sides of the neutral bars. To isolate the neutrals and grounds; which sounds like it has been done, you remove the connecting rod and land the grounding conductor on the left side and the grounded conductor on the right. You do, however, need to ground the panel via a jumper from the grounding side.