20a breaker protecting #8 wire

Status
Not open for further replies.

Alwayslearningelec

Senior Member
Location
NJ
Occupation
Estimator
If you had a 20a breaker and circuit but the distance required # 8 wire due to VD would anything be wrong with doing that? I would think the breaker would need to be changed .. No? Thanks
 

Dennis Alwon

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Chapel Hill, NC
Occupation
Retired Electrical Contractor
If you had a 20a breaker and circuit but the distance required # 8 wire due to VD would anything be wrong with doing that? I would think the breaker would need to be changed .. No? Thanks
Nothing wrong with that except that a #8 probably will not fit under a 20 amp breaker. The egc would need to be #8 also.
 

Alwayslearningelec

Senior Member
Location
NJ
Occupation
Estimator
So if you had a 50a breaker and #12's that would never be allowed be ause the wire would burn up because the breaker would not trip???

Thanks
 

mike_kilroy

Senior Member
Location
United States
If you had a 20a breaker and circuit but the distance required # 8 wire due to VD would anything be wrong with doing that? I would think the breaker would need to be changed .. No? Thanks

as an ee i figured I knew better, so when we built this house in 1989 I too oversized wire due to long run to outlets: used #12 and put in 15 amp breaker.....

I failed my electrical inspection: the inspector said it is against code to use wire size LARGER than breaker and explained why.... later, if we sell the house, an electrician can look in the cb box, see #12 wire on 15amp breaker and think he is safe replacing it with a 20amp breaker. and i might have added smaller #14 wire downstream, knowing the 15amp breaker would protect me.... so it is against code here to use wire size larger than the breaker rating into the breaker.
 

Dennis Alwon

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Chapel Hill, NC
Occupation
Retired Electrical Contractor
so it is against code here to use wire size larger than the breaker rating into the breaker.

Sorry, it is not against code-- your inspector is talking out his--- you know what. Can he give a code article for it? No- he can't. However it would be wise to write a tag on the wire that states the circuit OCPD.
 

hillbilly1

Senior Member
Location
North Georgia mountains
Occupation
Owner/electrical contractor
I had a customer that wanted his house done in emt ( had more money than he knew what to do with), and the inspector did not want to allow it because "Somebody could come back latter and change the wiring" . Just because it was his personnel preference, it did not make it code!
 

infinity

Moderator
Staff member
Location
New Jersey
Occupation
Journeyman Electrician
as an ee i figured I knew better, so when we built this house in 1989 I too oversized wire due to long run to outlets: used #12 and put in 15 amp breaker.....

I failed my electrical inspection: the inspector said it is against code to use wire size LARGER than breaker and explained why.... later, if we sell the house, an electrician can look in the cb box, see #12 wire on 15amp breaker and think he is safe replacing it with a 20amp breaker. and i might have added smaller #14 wire downstream, knowing the 15amp breaker would protect me.... so it is against code here to use wire size larger than the breaker rating into the breaker.

The inspector is playing the what if game which is not in the NEC. There are many scenarios that involve what if's that may make a complaint installation today non complaint tomorrow. Fortunately the NEC doesn't prohibit what if's.
 

kbsparky

Senior Member
Location
Delmarva, USA
The inspector is playing the what if game which is not in the NEC. There are many scenarios that involve what if's that may make a complaint installation today non complaint tomorrow. Fortunately the NEC doesn't prohibit what if's.

The Code has begun traveling down the path of the dark side with "what if" rules:

Why do they now require a "grounded" conductor in every switch box, even though most switches do not require connection to a neutral? They are employing the "what if" thinking that sometime down the road, someone may want to install a timer, motion sensor, etc that might need connection to a neutral!
 

stickboy1375

Senior Member
Location
Litchfield, CT
The Code has begun traveling down the path of the dark side with "what if" rules:

Why do they now require a "grounded" conductor in every switch box, even though most switches do not require connection to a neutral? They are employing the "what if" thinking that sometime down the road, someone may want to install a timer, motion sensor, etc that might need connection to a neutral!

I think there is more to the story for requiring a grounded conductor due to a UL listing for devices that use the grounding conductor as a current carrying conductor... I read something about it awhile back.
 

Fulthrotl

~Autocorrect is My Worst Enema.~
The Code has begun traveling down the path of the dark side with "what if" rules:

Why do they now require a "grounded" conductor in every switch box, even though most switches do not require connection to a neutral? They are employing the "what if" thinking that sometime down the road, someone may want to install a timer, motion sensor, etc that might need connection to a neutral!

i always put a neutral in every switch box. always have. but that's just me.
my first journeyman announced in no uncertain terms that if you didn't do
that, you sucked. i didn't want to suck, so i did that. still do.

i'm not sure what section of the code specifies the installers suckiness,
but it must be in there... everything else is....

if that piece of copper wire makes a significant change in my profit and loss,
the problem is far greater than having a wire in a box or not.

and you can use a conduit as the equipment grounding conductor. i can tell
you how many times i've done that. three receptacles.

to each his own..... subject to the NEC, of course.
 

Ponchik

Senior Member
Location
CA
Occupation
Electronologist
Nothing wrong with that except that a #8 probably will not fit under a 20 amp breaker. The egc would need to be #8 also.

So another words he cant use NM cable. It has to wired with a raceway?
 
Last edited:

Ponchik

Senior Member
Location
CA
Occupation
Electronologist

OP can use #12 without upsizing, because to compensate for voltage drop is not a NEC requirement. So this installation is fine with #12 EGC, but as soon as one goes larger gauge for voltage drop then you have to upsize the GEC.

It doesn't make sense?

Can you explain why? Has the code making panel given a reason for this?
 

broadgage

Senior Member
Location
London, England
If the current carrying wires are upsized to reduce voltage drop, then code requires that the EGC be similary upsized so as to be no smaller than the current carrying wires.

The reason for this is open to debate. I can think of two reasons.

Firstly to reduce touch voltages in the event of a ground fault.
Consider an appliance with a grounded metal case that is connected to a grounded circuit.
Suppose that the appliance is defective and that a hot wire touches the metal case.
With the hot and EGC wires the same size, they form a potential divider with 60 volt drop in each.
The metalic case of the appliance is therefore energised at 60 volts, until the fuse opens, which might take some seconds. A person holding the appliance would get a 60 volt shock, possibly dangerous but more likely not.

Now consider a similar installation, but with the EGC much smaller than the hot.
During a ground fault, there might be 20 volts drop in the hot wire, and 100 volts drop in the EGC, this means that anyone touching the appliance would get a 100 volt shock, which is more likely to be dangerous.
Not only is the touch voltage greater, but it will persist for longer, possibly indefinatly in extreme cases, since the reduced fault current means that the fuse takes longer to open, and in extreme cases might never open.

The other reason may be to "future proof" an installation.
Someone in future might find hot and neutral suited for 50 amps, and install a 50 amp breaker, despite the EGC being only suited for perhaps a 20 amp circuit.
The EGC could get dangerously hot before the 50 amp breaker opened.
 

infinity

Moderator
Staff member
Location
New Jersey
Occupation
Journeyman Electrician
The inspector is playing the what if game which is not in the NEC. There are many scenarios that involve what if's that may make a complaint installation today non complaint tomorrow. Fortunately the NEC doesn't prohibit what if's.

The Code has begun traveling down the path of the dark side with "what if" rules:

Why do they now require a "grounded" conductor in every switch box, even though most switches do not require connection to a neutral? They are employing the "what if" thinking that sometime down the road, someone may want to install a timer, motion sensor, etc that might need connection to a neutral!

Cetrainly you would agree that this is not the same as someone coming along in the future and changing circuit breakers to a larger size.
 

roger

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Fl
Occupation
Retired Electrician
as an ee i figured I knew better, so when we built this house in 1989 I too oversized wire due to long run to outlets: used #12 and put in 15 amp breaker.....

I failed my electrical inspection: the inspector said it is against code to use wire size LARGER than breaker and explained why.... later, if we sell the house, an electrician can look in the cb box, see #12 wire on 15amp breaker and think he is safe replacing it with a 20amp breaker. and i might have added smaller #14 wire downstream, knowing the 15amp breaker would protect me.... so it is against code here to use wire size larger than the breaker rating into the breaker.
If there is any chance you can still find this inspector, walk up to him and slap him square in the mouth for being stupid. :D


Roger
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top