110.26 (A) & Foam Pump Controller

[SIRSPARKSALOT]

My guys are working on a job with an electric fire pump. The fire pump controller, jockey pump and foam pump controller are all located in the fire pump room...which is getting very tight. My foreman on the job is telling me that I need to maintain clearances as per 110.26 (A)(1), but I disagree. As per 110.26 (A):

...likely to require examination, adjustment, servicing, or maintenance while energized...

I have a disconnecting means for this controller aside from the one in the unit. I also have the main service disconnect (separate service for the fire pump) that I can use as a disconnecting means. Therefore, I can de-energize in the event that I need to perform the aforementioned tasks.

I know I want to make sure there is as much room as possible in order to facilitate any type of maintenance, but I do not think I need to maintain the dimensions as per 110.26 (A)(1).

What do you all think?

 

[don_resqcapt19]

My opinion is that all electrical equipment is likely to be worked on while energized no matter where the next upstream means of disconnect is located.

 

[SIRSPARKSALOT]

My opinion is that all electrical equipment is likely to be worked on while energized no matter where the next upstream means of disconnect is located.

Article 100 - Equipment. A general term including material, fittings, devices, appliances, luminaires, apparatus, machinery and the like used as part, or in connection with, an electrical installation.

Based on what you are saying, a light switch would require the minimum clearances as per 110.26 (A)(1). I have seen many residential and commercial A/C units with the disconnect switch mounted directly behind and above the units. I have done it myself with no problems from any inspectors. The disconnect can be reached to turn off the unit in order to service it. If maintenance has to be done on the disconnect, the upstream device can be turned off to accomodate maintenance of the disconnect.

I think this is more important when talking about panels and similar pieces of equpiment where circuits may need to be run without turning off the the panel. Once this foam pump controller is hooked up their is nothing to maintain or examine...epsecially while it is energized...nor is their a need to get into the controller cabinet to run additional circuits. This is just my thought.

I will be calling the DCA today in order to get confirmation as to what their opinion is and post what I learn.

 

[don_resqcapt19]

...Based on what you are saying, a light switch would require the minimum clearances as per 110.26 (A)(1).

Yes, the code wording in 110.26(A) applies to all electrical equipment.

I have seen many residential and commercial A/C units with the disconnect switch mounted directly behind and above the units. I have done it myself with no problems from any inspectors. The disconnect can be reached to turn off the unit in order to service it. If maintenance has to be done on the disconnect, the upstream device can be turned off to accomodate maintenance of the disconnect.

The code rule is not based on being able to shut off the power at an upstream disconnect. It only based on "if it is likley" that the equipment will be worked on while energized. It is my opinion that all electrical equipment is likely to be worked on while energized.

I think this is more important when talking about panels and similar pieces of equpiment where circuits may need to be run without turning off the the panel. Once this foam pump controller is hooked up their is nothing to maintain or examine...epsecially while it is energized...nor is their a need to get into the controller cabinet to run additional circuits. This is just my thought.

The code rule is not based on the need to work on it live...just if it is likely to happen.
The rule needs to be re-written so it does not apply to all electrical equipment, but Code Making Panel 1 has refused to accept proposals to change the working.

I will be calling the DCA today in order to get confirmation as to what their opinion is and post what I learn.

Yes, the local AHJ has the final say.

 

[iwire]

My opinion is that all electrical equipment is likely to be worked on while energized no matter where the next upstream means of disconnect is located.

Perhaps likely but rarely 'required to be'.

(A) Working Space. Working space for equipment operating
at 600 volts, nominal, or less to ground and likely to
require examination, adjustment, servicing, or maintenance
while energized shall comply with the dimensions of
110.26(A)(1), (A)(2), and (A)(3) or as required or permitted
elsewhere in this Code.

IMO, working on equipment live is almost always optional, not required.

 

[don_resqcapt19]

...IMO, working on equipment live is almost always optional, not required.

Yes, working on energized equipment is rarely required, but testing, examining or troubleshooting often is required. It remains my opinion that, in someones mind, there will be a "need" or "requirement" to work on all electrical equipment while it is energized at some point in the life of the equipment. As long as this "need" persists, there is a likelyhood that the equipment will be worked on energized and 110.26(A) work space is needed for all electrical equipment. The term equipment is defined in Article 100 and that is the definition that must be used when applying 110.26(A).

 

[jxofaltrds]

Perhaps likely but rarely 'required to be'.




IMO, working on equipment live is almost always optional, not required.

:jawdrop:

 

[iwire]

Yes, working on energized equipment is rarely required, but testing, examining or troubleshooting often is required.

I disagree, that is a choice, you can troubleshoot most things dead it is just more difficult and time consuming.

It remains my opinion that, in someones mind, there will be a "need" or "requirement" to work on all electrical equipment while it is energized at some point in the life of the equipment.

But that is clearly a 'what if' position and does not prove the need to do so.


Not trying to bust your chops here, we are both in agreement the section needs a re-write.

 

[jxofaltrds]

I disagree, that is a choice, you can troubleshoot most things dead it is just more difficult and time consuming.



But that is clearly a 'what if' position and does not prove the need to do so.


Not trying to bust your chops here, we are both in agreement the section needs a re-write.

Bob where were you when I needed you?
http://forums.mikeholt.com/showthread.php?t=146367

 

[don_resqcapt19]

...
But that is clearly a 'what if' position and does not prove the need to do so.
...

Who decides the "need" to work hot? In my opinion the person doing the work decides that, and it is very likely that work will be done on energized "equipment".

 

[iwire]

Who decides the "need" to work hot? In my opinion the person doing the work decides that, and it is very likely that work will be done on energized "equipment".

Again that is still a 'what if' and does not prove that servicing it while energized is required.


I did not write the section, it was not I that chose to add the word required but it is in fact in the code section.

 

[don_resqcapt19]

Again that is still a 'what if' and does not prove that servicing it while energized is required.


I did not write the section, it was not I that chose to add the word required but it is in fact in the code section.

CMP 1 says "required" means "need". The question remains is who determines the need. In my opinion that need is determined by the person doing the work and based on many of the comments here and in other electrical forms, the "need" to work on energized equipment is very common.

2011 ROC 1-128 ...Panel Statement: The submitter misunderstands use of the word ?require? as it is used in 110.26(A). In this context, ?require? means ?need?. If it is probable that examination, adjustment, servicing or maintenance will need to be performed on energized equipment, then 110.26 applies.

 

[SIRSPARKSALOT]

This reminds me of an instructor I took a class with years ago. First day in class...first question to the class...

"Someone please give me a situation where you cannot turn something off to work on it (ie. a situation that requires working hot)"

At this point the class started throwing out examples...me included. We went from office buildings to hospitals etc. It went on for almost an hour. Every example mentioned he shot down and offered a solution as to how you would go about working on it in a de-energized state. More importantly he discussed protocols used to do this in regards to facilities and utility companies. What he was explaining was that we, as electricians, make the choice to work on live equipment. Since then I have always remembered that I have a choice. Rings even more true when you're in a management position, because how can you make that choice for your men?

Either way I am still waiting to hear back from the DCA and I will post their interpretation as soon as I hear.

Thanks for the input guys!!!