5000 sf mansion rewire

[newservice]

Customer had me look at her 5000 sf, 1905 built mansion in the old ritzy section of town. Retired couple just bought it. No doubt this was home to a barron or something in the day. 3 finished stories, ballroom sized rooms on first floor, grand 3 story foyer stairs and a servents staircase off to the side. 4 fireplaces, 5 full baths, and 8 bedrooms. Basement is 8 foot ceiling with falling down lath and plaster. Knob and tube is original and so are the devices. Very minimal receptacles in each room, max 3 or 4 each room, some only 1 or 2 and a wall sconce with switch. No switched lights or recepts in any rooms. Existing K&T seems in ok shape where visible, except where it's in exterior walls in contact with blown in insulation. House has 150A overhead service, but no double poles on the K&T multiwire. hmy:

Any ideas on how to estimate? Ill back off and read a few responses.

 

[realolman]

.....Any ideas on how to estimate?.... .

High.

 

[masterinbama]

Too many variables. Any demo to be done? Any new walls going up? etc. etc.


I would do it cost plus or estimate it high and add 25% on top. It could easily push $50K in no time.

 

[newservice]

No demo or walls goiing up, its also in the historic preservation district. Except what ever I have to rip down to wire, depending on wire method. 50 k huh. I can see either profit or quicksand.

 

[jxofaltrds]

High.

And higher.

"As of April 22, 2010, anyone who conducts renovations, repairs, or painting in pre-1978 or child-occupied facilities must get certified. In addition to personal certification, there is also the requirement of getting your firm registered with EPA in order to ensure that you are not at risk to receive up to $37,500 in fines per day!"

Don't know where you are but here is Ohio.
http://leadcertificationohio.com/

 

[Dennis Alwon]

I would not do a job like this unless it was T&M. :thumbsup:

 

[newservice]

I would not do a job like this unless it was T&M. :thumbsup:

I agree. But what is T&M. Time and money? lol

 

[Dennis Alwon]

I agree. But what is T&M. Time and money? lol

Tons of Money :lol:

 

[growler]

House has 150A overhead service.

Maybe they would like a 400 Amp underground service with electric heat pump and back up heat strips and an instant hot water heater and a great big hot tub or maybe not.

Find out what they want to do with the place.

 

[kwired]

How do you get all of that in 5000 sf and be able to say the rooms are big? Or is 5000 sf only habitable spaces, that helps some. If you just go with foot print area x number of floors that is not all that excessively large with most of what is being built these days.

Average family size is smaller but houses are bigger, go figure. My father grew up in a house with six kids, mother and father - it was a two bedroom house - no basement. Today child services would say that is horrible and either take the kids away or attempt to relocate the family or something.

My dad still has good relationship with all his siblings, unlike many a generation or two later that grew up with their own rooms, their own stuff, did what they wanted instead of what the family was doing, and now they can't stand their siblings. Please don't comment on this, just think about it.

 

[Hv&Lv]

How do you get all of that in 5000 sf and be able to say the rooms are big?

I was curious about that also. My house is two stories and 4000 sq.ft. No ballroom size rooms here. and 8 bedrooms with 5 baths?
It has to be 5000 sq. ft. per floor...

 

[krisinjersey]

My old man has been telling me for years that size is objective. LOL
And I wouldn't consider 5000 sq.ft really all that big. 10k gets tough, but they're pretty rare any more. I'd take the base floor plan drawings and lay it out as though it was a large track job. Do your service calculations off of that. Then re-plan the project with a median range of higher end options; recessed lighting, lighting control, sub systems, data, higher receptacle count, and upgrade the service with a back-up system.
You have to do a real throrough evaluation of the customer. Younger owners are much easier to sell tech upgrades, older clientele are easier for convinience upgrades.
I've limited us to exclusively refferal based residential for 4000 sq.ft and up, and there is money to be made but you have to vet the client. I've got 4 guys on a first floor/first phase of a 5,500 square foot right now. Initial price was just short of $9k including the kitchen. After the first site meeting, the service was upgraded, the lighting package doubled and the job was at almost $30k. The guys are adding the last of the A/V, control system stuff and exterior lighting rough today and the project is at $48K, so I can see the number for your job getting WAY up there. But, I'm in Jersey and the market here is different.
We run these like a small commercial project, and bid with a higher difficulty factor. If the customer can't stomach the price, bail. As soon as you see plaster and lathe or plater and mesh, realize how much labor is involved in set-up/teardown, PPE slowdowns, cleanup equipment, etc. Plaster dust can ruin a floor finish fast, not to mention cost a bundle for a talented repair. If you REALLY want this and budget is a concern, sell it in gut-reno pieces. With the mess out of your way the customer can get everything they want, smooth wall finishes, viable insulation, simple infrastructure upgrades, and the costs are way lower. Plus, some one else deals with the tear down mess.
If this was a "Hey can you come rewire my 100 year old 5000sq.ft house, and not wreck anything while I live here?" I'd immediately walk away.

 

[renosteinke]

I can picture the exact sort of house you are describing. You'll probably find that the existing electrical is individual, single wires buried within the plaster (not knob & tube), with surface-mounted devices.

You either have to run the new electric on the surface, or you need to 'trench' the walls. Flex makes a saw just for this; it has two blades spaced about 3/4" apart, and cuts deep enough to lay in 1/2" EMT. This is then plastered over. Your boxes will still stand a bit 'proud' of the wall.

You absolutely will need lead certification, and will need to get the assorted paperwork to the customer. While the plaster probably doesn't have asbestos in it - it's old enough to have horsehair instead - you'll want it tested. Zipwall is your friend.

 

[wolfman56]

Been there done that.
You need to let them know at the start that painting and drywall or plaster, are cheap compared to an electrician. The best way to go is to get them to have some one else remove the lower 4' of plaster and lathe in the entire house. This will enable a much better job all around.

Remember they also need plumbing, insulation, HVAC, LV, pest control, etc. Everything is inside the walls.

Rick

 

[K8MHZ]

I have done many home this age. I actually like the work. Most guys hate it.

Some warnings.

The guys getting paid by the hour will always make a profit. The EC will have a hard time making a profit, if at all.

The owners usually like to be their own general contractors and make the job far more expensive than someone with real GC experience would have.

The owners had a monetary figure in mind at the start of the job which is usually exceeded about half way through. Now to get paid, blood must be squeezed from turnips.

80 percent of the people doing the carpentry and drywall work are hacks. You can count on them either damaging your work or covering your boxes.

Half the time, especially on larger re-mods, the job will start and stop as the owner runs out of money. That means extra time for all the trades, and more money, which the owner won't be happy about paying.

80 percent of these older homes are in cities where you can't leave your vehicle unlocked even for a second and you can't leave anything at the site overnight or it will get stolen. Again, extra time and effort that the owner will expect for free.

In older re-mods you are more likely to be stuck between an inspector's requirement and the owner's refusal to pay for the requirement. (That is SO much fun.....)

The wood in older home must be genetically related to lignum vitae. (The most important and exacting use of lignum vitae is for bearings or bushing blocks lining the stern tubes of propeller shafts of steamships and submarines.) Man that stuff is hard! It's also thicker. Easily twice as much effort to drill through today's stick wood than the old real oak boards.

Removal of plaster may reveal a major construction flaw. If you have to run wire from one side of the flaw to the other, that pull will be put on hold. If the flaw is big enough, the entire job will be on hold.

On top of that, you will run into floors and walls that don't line up, uneven spacing of wall studs, splices of wall studs, firestops, walls full of plaster, rocks, sand, old newspapers, underwear, bottles and whatever trash the builder of the home stuck there.

I would recommend not even thinking about bidding a job until you have worked for someone else on at least three re-mods of homes that old. If you decide to do one without experience, (the is GOOD advice) T&M at a fair rate and payment every week. Work stops until payment is not only made, but has cleared the bank. My personal preference is cash after work stoppage. I just tell the owner that cash starts us now, a check will have to be cleared before we we-start. And, usually, cash it is.

With all the above caveats, doing old re-mods can be fun. It's different every day and there are myriad problems to be solved. But it's not fun enough to do for free.

 

[K8MHZ]

Been there done that.
You need to let them know at the start that painting and drywall or plaster, are cheap compared to an electrician. The best way to go is to get them to have some one else remove the lower 4' of plaster and lathe in the entire house. This will enable a much better job all around.

Remember they also need plumbing, insulation, HVAC, LV, pest control, etc. Everything is inside the walls.

Rick

In Michigan, once a wall is opened, everything in the wall must be brought up to code.

 

[K8MHZ]

Oh, and I forgot to add,

Rats, mice, feral cats, possums, coons, snakes, spiders, roaches, ants, bees and nests and excrement thereof.

That is if you manage to remain unscathed through the rusty cans, broken glass and shards of broken concrete.

 

[augie47]

Excellent posts K8MHZ.
It is one area where experience plays a MAJOR role.

 

[K8MHZ]

Excellent posts K8MHZ.
It is one area where experience plays a MAJOR role.

Thanks!

More than once I have done re-mods where the EC took it in the rear. Nearly every time, the EC's were new at the re-mod game.

 

[realolman]

one time I dug an entire rocking chair out of a wall from the attic. Somebody must have dis assembled it and put it in the wall.

why???

why, indeed. for me to find I guess.