Merit to Power Conditioning Claims?

[charlie b]

Installing equipment to make the power factor unity (1.0), will save energy thus save money.

The vast majority of the money being saved will be to the benefit of the utility, not the customer. If the utility charges a power factor penalty, then the customer can save money by improving the power factor. Otherwise, the utility will expend fewer KVA in order to provide the customer with the same KW, and the customer pays the same amount of money for the service.

 

[charlie b]

If the customer owns a large size factory such as a paper mill, I?R losses due to low power factor is considerable.

But it will be much smaller in savings than the power conditioner company will be charging for their "magic" equipment. So the customer will not receive an adequate payback for their investment.

 

[T.M.Haja Sahib]

But it will be much smaller in savings than the power conditioner company will be charging for their "magic" equipment. So the customer will not receive an adequate payback for their investment.

Yes. Providing capacitor banks alone at strategic locations in large size factories such as paper mill can result in considerable savings. No need for any other 'magic' device.

 

[mike_kilroy]

yes, from the description I envisioned the power saving thing as a magic box they put at the power entry to the factory: if so, then they will not save ANY money by doing PFC techniques there (unless that demand portion of bill really was PF penalty); it will only lower the out of phase current going OUT to the poco; so NO savings on I2R inside the plant as the currents will all be the same.

 

[don_resqcapt19]

If the customer owns a large size factory such as a paper mill, losses due to low power factor is considerable.

The calculations I have seen have show that the reduction in the I?R losses from power factor correction are in the 2 to 3% range.

 

[ggunn]

Sounds like Grade A, High Definition, Special Edition Snake oil with authentic vinyl trim.

Fully equipped with factory air conditioned air from our fully equipped air conditioned factory. (attribute: Firesign Theatre)

 

[Besoeker]

Yes. Providing capacitor banks alone at strategic locations in large size factories such as paper mill can result in considerable savings. No need for any other 'magic' device.

Care to define your view of considerable savings in terms of real numbers?

 

[stevephillips]

I should have been more clear. Yes it is true having unity PF will save money BUT depending on the situation, the amount save will vary widely. If a customer is not billed for reactive power, then I squared R loss will be rather small. If the customer has to pay a power factory penalty (like around here) then it will save money. But were not talking about cutting the bill in half or anything like that.

Mike Kilroy
"Customers do not pay for reactive power (unless they have PF penalty charge) since it is imaginary; any reactive CURRENT goes out to the power source (or PFC caps) and then next cycle it all comes back to the source. net result is 0 power."

I still disagree. The reactive power has to come from somewhere. If it comes from a source on the customer side of the meter then you are absolutely correct. If not, and there is a PF burden charge, the customer will see the cost of these circulating currents.

 

[Hv&Lv]

I use a fluke 43b power analyzer. It tells me everything. Your formula figures in near worst case scenario of bad power factor. That is a good thing and I would continue using it.

That isn't what I meant. I wasn't asking what you would measure with. You stated:When dealing with AC, watts are not a valid measurement of power unless your loads are purely resistive (PF=1).

What measurement of power would you use if not Watts? Watts is the SI unit of power...

 

[Jraef]

That isn't what I meant. I wasn't asking what you would measure with. You stated:When dealing with AC, watts are not a valid measurement of power unless your loads are purely resistive (PF=1).

What measurement of power would you use if not Watts? Watts is the SI unit of power...

Obviously it must be Flukes!

 

[mivey]

Obviously it must be Flukes!

Paralichthys dentatus?

 

[Besoeker]

If a customer is not billed for reactive power, then I squared R loss will be rather small.

I²R loss is what it is.
It is not contingent billing method.

 

[mike_kilroy]

Mike Kilroy
"Customers do not pay for reactive power (unless they have PF penalty charge) since it is imaginary; any reactive CURRENT goes out to the power source (or PFC caps) and then next cycle it all comes back to the source. net result is 0 power."

I still disagree. The reactive power has to come from somewhere. If it comes from a source on the customer side of the meter then you are absolutely correct. If not, and there is a PF burden charge, the customer will see the cost of these circulating currents.

It DOES come from a source on the customer side...... Take a motor for an example: it must have 90 degree out of phase current to make a magnetic field; This is the reactive or imaginary current. It comes FROM the motor, goes out somewhere then comes back then repeats each cycle. If you put PF cap right at the motor terminals it will circulate out of the motor into the caps then back into the motor; if not, it will go out to the power company and then back. Current that comes from the power company that is in phase current goes into the motor to make torque. When you first put voltage across the motor inductance, it makes this 90 degree out of phase reactive current (ELI the ICEman) that simply comes and goes.