Buffet Table

[augie47]

On a recent inspection of a remodel on a nationally know restaurant I noted there was a buffet table
with four different warming methods all wired to a small load center located inside the base of the cabinet. Questioning the E/C about the install he was quick to note all he did was provide power to the assembled unit. I questioned the listing on the assembled table and, of course, got the usual "all the components are listed" answer.
I am concerned about the lack of overall listing and the working clearance on the panel. I am also faced with the fact that these or similar tables are installed in this chain all over the country.
Has anyone else had this issues addressed on an inspection ?

 

[kwired]

On a recent inspection of a remodel on a nationally know restaurant I noted there was a buffet table
with four different warming methods all wired to a small load center located inside the base of the cabinet. Questioning the E/C about the install he was quick to note all he did was provide power to the assembled unit. I questioned the listing on the assembled table and, of course, got the usual "all the components are listed" answer.
I am concerned about the lack of overall listing and the working clearance on the panel. I am also faced with the fact that these or similar tables are installed in this chain all over the country.
Has anyone else had this issues addressed on an inspection ?

Have not had issues come up at an inspection. Do recall connecting one similar to what you describe, but it has been a long time ago, so I don't recall any details about the unit.

One thing to consider is if this is part of the permanent wiring of the building or is it part of the wiring of an appliance?

If it is part of an appliance then NEC probably doesn't apply, but then you may have rules that say the appliance must be either listed or built to NEC standards.

If there is a disconnect so that all power can be safely removed before working on it does that change anything? Kind of your call as AHJ.

 

[augie47]

I agree with all you say. I did reject the job pending this being addressed. It's just when I think of all their restaurants and all the buffet tables and the "deer in the headlight" look one gets, I wonder why this is even an issue and why it has not been previously addressed enough that it not reoccur.

 

[RICK NAPIER]

I had this issue before and it turned out the unit was not listed. The electrician had to rewire the unit. There were multiple problems including gas lines and electrical wires run in the same chase.

 

[steve66]

What is the working clearance issue? There isn't 3 feet in front of the panel??

I think its very common to have these small subpanels, but the kitchen designers are usually careful to leave working space.

 

[augie47]

What is the working clearance issue? There isn't 3 feet in front of the panel??

I think its very common to have these small subpanels, but the kitchen designers are usually careful to leave working space.

The panel is installed in the "doorway" below the countertop but not facing outward, but faces the opposing door facing, so it does not meet 110.26

 

[renosteinke]

I've done several buffets, but I'm not sure I understand the specifics of your particular table.

I understand a 'buffet table' to be a counter, acessible to the customers, where pans are held in hot water to keep the contents warm. There are usually lights mounted about face level. My comments will be based upon this sort of arrangement.

Every such table I have seen has been site-fabricated, with only the steel pan being factory made. It's been up to me to bring power to the unit, and to install the controls.

There's no denying that clearances can be tight, and things get placed in very awkward places.

I've always treated them as if they were appliances. Or, if you prefer, countertops. I don't see any code requirement that the tables, as a complete unit, be listed. Not any more than your kitchen counter at home.

Gas and electric in the same chase? Where's the code issue?

I'd probably consider the panel you describe as a control panel, and not a 'panel' as the NEC uses the term. That is, I would have no problem with it being placed under an overhanging counter, without that 'clear space' to the ceiling. GFCI protection? I don't consider it to be required. I do not consider 'warming' to be the same as "cooking and preparation," and the serving area is not a 'kitchen.' Not even if one side is open to the kitchen.

Now, the specifics might change by the application. You mention 'four different warming methods.' I have some trouble understanding that. Electric, gas, heat lamps, and ...? Are you counting the supplied hot water as a separate method? Is the gas being used for a grill, or other cooking area? Is there a steam cooker?

 

[kwired]

I've done several buffets, but I'm not sure I understand the specifics of your particular table.

I understand a 'buffet table' to be a counter, acessible to the customers, where pans are held in hot water to keep the contents warm. There are usually lights mounted about face level. My comments will be based upon this sort of arrangement.

Every such table I have seen has been site-fabricated, with only the steel pan being factory made. It's been up to me to bring power to the unit, and to install the controls.

There's no denying that clearances can be tight, and things get placed in very awkward places.

I've always treated them as if they were appliances. Or, if you prefer, countertops. I don't see any code requirement that the tables, as a complete unit, be listed. Not any more than your kitchen counter at home.

Gas and electric in the same chase? Where's the code issue?

I'd probably consider the panel you describe as a control panel, and not a 'panel' as the NEC uses the term. That is, I would have no problem with it being placed under an overhanging counter, without that 'clear space' to the ceiling. GFCI protection? I don't consider it to be required. I do not consider 'warming' to be the same as "cooking and preparation," and the serving area is not a 'kitchen.' Not even if one side is open to the kitchen.

Now, the specifics might change by the application. You mention 'four different warming methods.' I have some trouble understanding that. Electric, gas, heat lamps, and ...? Are you counting the supplied hot water as a separate method? Is the gas being used for a grill, or other cooking area? Is there a steam cooker?

The one I recall connecting one time was not fabricated on site, but likey was not a listed appliance either, but rather made up of multiple appliances that were probably individually listed. All built into a decorative wood structure. There was a small 6 or 8 space loadcenter mounted in the mechanical area underneath. This unit had breaker(s) for heating devices, as well as a breaker for the compressor and associated equipment for the portion of the buffet that contained chilled items. I believe there were also heat lamps, and or other lighting installed as part of the unit and were on another breaker. The thing probably required a 40 or 50 amp circuit 125/250 volts supplying the loadcenter. It has been a long time ago so I don't recall for certain every detail, but I doubt this unit was listed as a single unit and there is no way there was 110.26 working clearance in front of the load center either.

 

[augie47]

It seems to be similar to the ones with which you are familiar. Warming pans and heat lamps and a loadcenter supplying power to those units.
Had the electrician performing the installation wired the assembly to the NEC, I would see no problem, however, it came in pre-wired. Our jurisdiction requires equipment, devices and appliances to bear a NRTL label. With such a label I would accept it as is assuming it was assembled to applicable standards.
If the E/C wires it, I would think it would need to be wired to NEC including proper working clearance on the loadcenter.

 

[cowboyjwc]

I had the same issue come up at a major chain resturant and was told the same thing you were. I then contacted UL who told me that they had the same concerns as I did and that the listing process had not been completed. The panel ended up getting moved to the front of the cabinet.

 

[augie47]

After the buffet table supplier advised their in-house "qualified" electrician wired the assembly they reluctantly hired the remodel E/C to work with me to assure NEC compliance. He found: (a) ungrounded components, (b) untrimmed flex, (c) multiple equipment grounds under lugs listed for one conductor (d) armored cables terminated with locknuts not secure and (e) improper working clearance.
Deficiencies were corrected. Seems to validate the need for overall listing as opposed to component listing.

 

[cowboyjwc]

After the buffet table supplier advised their in-house "qualified" electrician wired the assembly they reluctantly hired the remodel E/C to work with me to assure NEC compliance. He found: (a) ungrounded components, (b) untrimmed flex, (c) multiple equipment grounds under lugs listed for one conductor (d) armored cables terminated with locknuts not secure and (e) improper working clearance.
Deficiencies were corrected. Seems to validate the need for overall listing as opposed to component listing.

That's kind of what we found too. Because that panel was so far back in that stainless steel cabinet, UL told me that the weren't sure whether they were going to list it as a buffet table or a crematorium.

 

[augie47]

That's kind of what we found too. Because that panel was so far back in that stainless steel cabinet, UL told me that the weren't sure whether they were going to list it as a buffet table or a crematorium.

 

[RICK NAPIER]

Gas and electric in the same chase? Where's the code issue?

I wrote the reply on the way out and worded it improperly. The "chase" was a wide metal wireway with single conductors and switches with gas pipes run through the wireway. NEC 300.8. There was a multitude of other violations including improper connectors, burried splice boxes, cords used to replace permanent wirring methods, strapping, grounding and on and on.

 

[RICK NAPIER]

Another place I find panel access to be an issue are these mall kiosks. They always want to bury the panel in a cabinet.

 

[kwired]

Another place I find panel access to be an issue are these mall kiosks. They always want to bury the panel in a cabinet.

Not familiar with construction of those - are they listed units or not (generally speaking anyway)?

 

[RICK NAPIER]

Not generally. Kiosks are the booths you find in the mall open areas where they sell anything from sunglasses, perfumes, food, home repairs etcetera.

 

[north star]

$ $ $

Does anyone have any technical info / pics. / model
numbers / manufacturers on these types of tables,
for the rest of us?

Thank you!

$ $ $

 

[petersonra]

if you are calling this an appliance, where in the code is an appliance required to be listed at all?

 

[augie47]

if you are calling this an appliance, where in the code is an appliance required to be listed at all?

It's a TN State requirement unless it's factory cord & plug.