3 electrocuted in Black, Idaho

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fbhwt

Electrical Systems Inspector
Location
Spotsylvania,Virginia
Occupation
Electrical Systems Inspector
Anyone read this story? Irrigation pump shorted sending current through water? That was Blackfoot, Idaho
 
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JP490440

Member
Location
NW Oklahoma
I have worked on a few irrigation wells around my area. I have run across a few with no sort of ground, just two hots running down to the motor. Maybe thats old school? I don?t know, but I didn?t much care for it.

That?s a heck of a thing to have happen anytime, but before a holiday.... Feel sorry for their families and friends.
 

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
There has to be more details that were not revealed. Was there a problem at the motor, possibly. We don't know how close this motor was to the victims, what kind of grounded objects were in close proximity to the water, as well as within reach of victims or other details. To be electrocuted you have to come in contact between two different points of potential or current is not going to flow through you. The water may have been energized, but so would the shore around it, although depending on conditions there could be a relatively short distance between significant potential levels - that is a possible place for something to happen, or if there were a metal sign or fence post near the edge of water it could easily be at a different potential than the water but maybe reachable from the water - you would have to touch both at same time of course.

It is a terrible accident but, media reports sometimes are just not accurate enough when trying to explain the cause of such events because they really have no clue how electricity works, or if an expert tells them one thing they report it as they understand it even if they changed it enough that other experts look at it and wonder what is going on with that.
 

texie

Senior Member
Location
Fort Collins, Colorado
Occupation
Electrician, Contractor, Inspector
I think the sad reality here is that these kind of things happen more than we know and we don't often get all the technical details either. We just had a 13 year old child electrocuted here about a month ago, allegedly also related to a irrigation pump/system. Sadly here is yet another one from today down in the Florida Keys: http://www.miamiherald.com/2012/08/31/2978504/keys-utility-worker-electrocuted.html
 

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
I think the sad reality here is that these kind of things happen more than we know and we don't often get all the technical details either. We just had a 13 year old child electrocuted here about a month ago, allegedly also related to a irrigation pump/system. Sadly here is yet another one from today down in the Florida Keys: http://www.miamiherald.com/2012/08/31/2978504/keys-utility-worker-electrocuted.html
That on at least was an electrical worker, and the reason can be put on inadequate safety procedures or training, the 13 year old probably was more similar to OP case, an innocent person not doing any electrical work happened to get into the wrong place at the wrong time. If comments from news media in OP case are correct, it was not a motor that shorted out that was the real problem, it was likely improper equipment grounding or poor selection of overcurrent protection. Failure of the motor can be expected to happen at some time, and that is why we install equipment grounding and overcurrent protection.
 
T

T.M.Haja Sahib

Guest
Lac kof maintenance

Lac kof maintenance

The root cause of the energized water tragedy by the faulty pump motor is due to lack of proper maintenance of the motor as recommended by the manufacturer, IMHO.
 

don_resqcapt19

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Illinois
Occupation
retired electrician
The root cause of the energized water tragedy by the faulty pump motor is due to lack of proper maintenance of the motor as recommended by the manufacturer, IMHO.
We have no idea what actually happend there. Yes the newpaper said the motor shorted, but I doubt that there had been any type of investigation at the time the story was written that would tell us the actual mode of failure. I also have not seen motor maintenance instructions that specified any type of maintenance that would let you predict and prevent a winding failure.
 
T

T.M.Haja Sahib

Guest
We have no idea what actually happend there. Yes the newpaper said the motor shorted, but I doubt that there had been any type of investigation at the time the story was written that would tell us the actual mode of failure.

I did not talk about the immediate cause or causes which might be revealed only by investigation. I am talking about the cause of the cause of the cause of .........i.e about the root cause and I am not able to imagine any other root cause that might have led to such kind of tragedy. If you know any other root cause, let us know.

I also have not seen motor maintenance instructions that specified any type of maintenance that would let you predict and prevent a winding failure.
Keeping a machine clean is one of the most important maintenance instruction. Dust accumulation in the windings of the motor can lead to its failure in the long run.
 

don_resqcapt19

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Illinois
Occupation
retired electrician
I did not talk about the immediate cause or causes which might be revealed only by investigation. I am talking about the cause of the cause of the cause of .........i.e about the root cause and I am not able to imagine any other root cause that might have led to such kind of tragedy. If you know any other root cause, let us know.
There are any number of possible root causes that could have energized the water. Any failure of the insulation of any ungrounded part of the electrical system that supplies the motor as well as a failure of the motor itself could cause this porblem. A code compliant installation would prevent most of these possible causes from actually energizing the water.
Keeping a machine clean is one of the most important maintenance instruction. Dust accumulation in the windings of the motor can lead to its failure in the long run.
Given the information in the newpaper report it would be very unlikely that the motor would be of "open" construction that would permit dirt and dust to accumulate on the windings.
 
T

T.M.Haja Sahib

Guest
Any failure of the insulation of any ungrounded part of the electrical system that supplies the motor as well as a failure of the motor itself could cause this porblem.
Failure of insulation or a failure of motor itself happens due to lack of proper maintenance and improper maintenance is the root cause.

Given the information in the newpaper report it would be very unlikely that the motor would be of "open" construction that would permit dirt and dust to accumulate on the windings.
May be or may not be. But it may be kept in mind that keeping the machine clean is one of the most important maintanance activities.
 

don_resqcapt19

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Illinois
Occupation
retired electrician
Failure of insulation or a failure of motor itself happens due to lack of proper maintenance and improper maintenance is the root cause.
The kind of maintenance that would predict an insulation failure, just is not very commonly done.


May be or may not be. But it may be kept in mind that keeping the machine clean is one of the most important maintanance activities.
Could be, but again, not something that is commonly done.
 

erb1995

Member
Location
Idaho Falls
3 people electrocuted in rescue attempt

3 people electrocuted in rescue attempt

http://www.localnews8.com/news/-/308662/16441800/-/xtr399/-/index.html

"Photo of the control panel next to ditch and additional information on the story."

I was told that they shut off the breaker at the panel and the water was still energized?
The power company had to disconnect the transformer on the pole to deenergize the power.
The power company mentioned that the run to the pannel from the power pole was to far away to trigger the breaker, over 1000 ft.?
Soo sad.
 

tom baker

First Chief Moderator
Staff member
To be electrocuted you have to come in contact between two different points of potential or current is not going to flow through you. The water may have been energized, but so would the shore around it, although depending on conditions there could be a relatively short distance between significant potential levels - that is a possible place for something to happen, or if there were a metal sign or fence post near the edge of water it could easily be at a different potential than the water but maybe reachable from the water - you would have to touch both at same time of course.
.

Fresh water electrocutions are more dangerous as opposed to salt water. Fresh water is non conductive so there is a large voltage gradient. Just being in the water you can die. But the dog may of been standing on shore, got shocked, the owner got shocked and perhaps fell in the water. Not enough to go on here.
 

raider1

Senior Member
Staff member
Location
Logan, Utah
I will be headed to the Northwest section meeting of the IAEI on Sunday. It is being held in Missoula Montana which is fairly close by where this tragedy occurred. If I hear of anything related to this incident I will let everyone know.

Chris
 

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
Fresh water electrocutions are more dangerous as opposed to salt water. Fresh water is non conductive so there is a large voltage gradient. Just being in the water you can die. But the dog may of been standing on shore, got shocked, the owner got shocked and perhaps fell in the water. Not enough to go on here.
I will agree that fresh water is less conductive than salt water, I will not agree that it is non conductive. Pure water with no dissolved minerals of any kind is non conductive, it is very difficult if not impossible to find pure water outside of water that man has purified. Even rain water picks up things while falling, and picks up even more once it hits the ground, although it very well may be more pure than ground water.
 
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