memyselfandI
Senior Member
- Location
- Hampton Roads, Virginia
Is it a requirement that a grounded (neutral) conductor be pulled with a set of feeder to a sub panel if no equipment connected to that panel has a need for a neutral?
Grounded conductor
- Thread starter memyselfandI
- Start date
- Status
- Location
- Wisconsin
- Occupation
- PE (Retired) - Power Systems
There is no such general rule in the NEC.
A/A Fuel GTX
Senior Member
- Location
- WI & AZ
- Occupation
- Electrician
Kind of odd when they make us pull a neutral to every switch location..........just in case........
jumper
Senior Member
- Location
- 3 Hr 2 Min from Winged Horses
:thumbsup:
- Location
- Wisconsin
- Occupation
- PE (Retired) - Power Systems
How often do you pull neutrals to motors and transformers?
It is only lighting loads using a neutral, that have the requirement for access to the neutral at the switch location.
A/A Fuel GTX
Senior Member
- Location
- WI & AZ
- Occupation
- Electrician
Not very often.
How often does someone install an electronic lighting control device in a dwelling?
- Location
- Wisconsin
- Occupation
- PE (Retired) - Power Systems
Definitely not at every switch location. I would think typically just the outdoor lights, which might get timers.
K8MHZ
Senior Member
- Occupation
- Electrician
I have motion sensors in my garage, outside for the house door and inside the house door for the foyer. The last house I was in had one for the laundry room which was great.
You will see them more and more. They are getting cheaper, sold at the big box stores and touted as energy saving devices.
- Location
- Bremerton, Washington
- Occupation
- Master Electrician
Thats for a completely different reason. the use of occupancy sensors with no neutral causes a small amount of current on the ground system, to get the 120V from the hot. the violates the NEC requirement on objectionable current
A/A Fuel GTX
Senior Member
- Location
- WI & AZ
- Occupation
- Electrician
Then I'm kinda confused. 404.2(C) says switches controlling lighting loads. To me, that means 99% of switches in dwellings.
A/A Fuel GTX
Senior Member
- Location
- WI & AZ
- Occupation
- Electrician
Are you referencing someone using the EGC as a neutral when no neutral is present?
- Location
- Wisconsin
- Occupation
- PE (Retired) - Power Systems
You asked how many residential locations might have electronic devices installed at them, not how many switch locations needed to comply with the 'access to a neutral' requirement.
iceworm
Curmudgeon still using printed IEEE Color Books
- Location
- North of the 65 parallel
- Occupation
- EE (Field - as little design as possible)
About 6 years ago, I was building my house and i was having buckets of trouble getting the fan speed controls and lighting dimmers to work.
Hey, I'm an engineer and I know how to get to the mfg engineering. So what if I'm DIY? So I call Leviton engineering, chew on the guy for a while - and he lets me go until I wind down.
His response:
UL has one spec. The NEC has another. When (and if) they get it together, we will build dimmers to match. Until then, we make one that fits UL, one that fits NEC, and a couple of others just because we always have. I'm pretty sure the NEC will eventually require a neutral at switch locations.
ice
Hey, I'm an engineer and I know how to get to the mfg engineering. So what if I'm DIY? So I call Leviton engineering, chew on the guy for a while - and he lets me go until I wind down.
His response:
UL has one spec. The NEC has another. When (and if) they get it together, we will build dimmers to match. Until then, we make one that fits UL, one that fits NEC, and a couple of others just because we always have. I'm pretty sure the NEC will eventually require a neutral at switch locations.
ice
jumper
Senior Member
- Location
- 3 Hr 2 Min from Winged Horses
Ice, according to the 2011 NEC, it already does.
A/A Fuel GTX
Senior Member
- Location
- WI & AZ
- Occupation
- Electrician
My point is 99% of residential switch locations "might" have electronic devices installed at them. So to me, that means 99% of residential switch locations require a grounded conductor to satisfy 404.2(C). Getting back to the OP's question, it seems inconsistant to not require a grounded conductor in a panel regardless of the initial load intentions when somewhere down the road, the need for a grounded conductor "might" be required.
jumper
Senior Member
- Location
- 3 Hr 2 Min from Winged Horses
And as we require a grounded conductor to be brought in for a service.....250.24(C)......where does it start or end....
- Location
- Chapel Hill, NC
- Occupation
- Retired Electrical Contractor
It would be wise to have a spare but not a requirement. Suppose you have a 480V panel sized for 3 or so motors. Why would the NEC require a neutral. There are many situations like that. If someone wants a neutral they need to go to the panel that has one. I have run a sub panel for a heating & A/c unit-- no need for a neutral so why require that. There are other panels with neutrals in the home.
- Location
- Illinois
- Occupation
- retired electrician
The design of many electronic switches do exactly that. The UL standard permited each swich to draw up to 0.5mA via the EGC. The rule in the NEC was put there because UL said they would not change the standard unless the code required a grounded conductor at the switch locations. I am not sure if UL has changed the standard yet.
jumper
Senior Member
- Location
- 3 Hr 2 Min from Winged Horses
Dennis, as far as residential goes: How many sub panels have you installed without a neutral? Tis' a rare beast in resi IMHO.
Me: zero in resi, a few in commercial.
iceworm
Curmudgeon still using printed IEEE Color Books
- Location
- North of the 65 parallel
- Occupation
- EE (Field - as little design as possible)
Ahhhhh .... Yes, that is absolutely true.
Reflecting on my post, I'm pretty sure it was meant to be anecdotal history.
ice
Teasing at you for not reading the post - not upset at you.
- Status