restrictive covenant

[hillbilly1]

My problem is not fellow employees taking designs, but customers taking my designs and shop pricing, most of the time we get the work, but one customer gave the whole contract to another competing contractor. The funny thing about it though, the customers own engineer thought he could design it cheaper, and not use the parts and wiring I designed to do the same thing. It doesnt, and they are now having to go back and replace some of the components to make it work in about 1200 stores!

 

[__dan]

Nonesense, that is just an ignorant statement. Many companies, including mine spend a lot of money in R&D and technical breakthroughs are very profitable. Is there some new way to wire a house? I have no idea, I doubt it, but this is a big trade we are in and there are new ideas and inovations all the time.

There is a big difference between a competitive advantage in having advanced and rare technical skills, expertise and ability to figure things out, and having patentable or trademark, copyright assets. I have spent time studying, researching, prior patents for things I considered getting a patent on. That's what I suggest. Study the prior art, it's very impressive.

The Apple Samsung battle included claims of patenting the rounded rectangular shape. There's a lot of activity making small changes to existing art to claim proprietary protected novelty status.

I certainly don't want to speak for Rewire but what I read was in the area of legalized anticompetitive practices, sales scripts, trade experience in profitable market niches, customer lists, basically knowing where the money is and going after it. All of that is being done somewhere thousands of times daily, honed over hundreds of years of experience. Nothing said he had a patent on a novel or proprietary technical advance and was producing it for sale in the market.

I drive around and say 'I'd like to work there', ' I see myself working there', 'I do what the customer wants done'. Is that novel?

 

[Fulthrotl]

look at it from the employer side and not the employee side and it will take on a whole new light. If you want to work on our team this is the rule its no different than requiring a drug test it just what it takes to work here. It is not about screwing the employee but about keeping the employee from screwing my business. As far as the "muppet" taking a customer it is not an issue as long as it is outside the 25 mile radius.

i am looking at it from the employer side. here is what is see:

you have a franchise mentality, and you have been taught by a franchise mentality.....
"this here is my territory, and i am gonna defend it against everyone
and everything. i OWN this." local labor unions of all types have this same mindset,
and you see how well it's working for them.

you don't trust anyone. my experience with this sort of behavior is that underneath
you figure everyone is thinking like you think, which is a logical assumption.
my experience is that people who don't trust anyone at all either are clinically
paranoid, or figure everyone is just like them.

you are completely controlled by the fear of being cheated. you have just spent
the better part of a day arguing with a bunch of folks on an inernet chat forum,
many of which think you are a bit batty for being this over the top on a service
business.

allow me to cut to the chase; sitting here behind a monitor debating how best to
pick flychit out of pepper is a lot less scary than getting out there and generating
business. how do i know this? 'cause i've done it.

so, the real question is not how to craft this sheet of paper for a $20 an hour muppet
to sign.

the real question is how are you going to overcome these fears that are controlling you:

fear of poverty
fear of being cheated
fear of failure
fear of rejection
fear of abandonment
fear of being NGE (not good enough)

welcome to the fourth column.

putting out of our minds the wrongdoings of others, real or imagined,
we look at our own side of the street. where have we been selfish,
inconsiderate, or frightened?

what have you done to be of service to the people around you today?

you have sat here defending your point of view to all comers for 7 pages.
none of that will help anyone you are really involved with in the real world.
none of this has helped a customer solve a problem, an employee earn
a living, and has served it would seem primarily as a testament to
your self centeredness.

 

[Rick Christopherson]

Considering your wording was exactly the same generic wording that pops up in a Google search for non-compete in MO, I suspect that you did not get this as legal advise from an attorney, but simply googled it yourself. The non-compete needs to be reasonable, but yours was google-generic. You cannot force someone out of an entire profession simply because they don't work for you. That is unreasonable, and unenforceable.

Reasonable would be, "you cannot install ABC security systems" within 25 miles. Unreasonable would be that you cannot be an electrician within 25 miles. You cannot block someone from an entire profession.

The fact that you are even contemplating this is even more telltale than your question itself. It tells everyone that you do not value the people that work for you. It is rather clear that your motivations are rather scummy.

 

[iwire]

Nonesense, that is just an ignorant statement.

Is that necessary?

He was commenting on the OPs situation and in that context it was accurate.

Many companies, including mine spend a lot of money in R&D and technical breakthroughs are very profitable. Is there some new way to wire a house? I have no idea, I doubt it, but this is a big trade we are in and there are new ideas and inovations all the time.

We are talking about a run of the mill service EC, that is not you in the least.

 

[iwire]

A job plain and simple . If you want to work here you sign if you dont sign you dont work here .

So you are not interested in hiring the best, only the robots. Makes great business sense.

not sure how you reached that conclusion

I reached that conclusion becuse anyone with a lick of sense and real skills would never sign such an agreement.

 

[iwire]

Exactly, the company paid you to develop those programs and they should own them, they have to protect themselves from you making a copy and going out to compete with them.

The point of a NC is that it can be enforced if needed, but rarely used.

Anyone here know how Bill Gates got rich? Yeah, exactly the point.

That is non disclosure, that is not 'You can't work in your field anymore'.

I think we all agree a company can protect their proprietary information.

Rewire is suggesting you can't continue being an electrician within 25 miles of him for 1 year if he lays you off. There is a huge differance between those two concepts.

 

[infinity]

what we do is more than just working as an electrician. All of our systems and proceedures are something I dont want walking out the door and down the street to a competitor. We are spending alot of time energy and yes money to develope our business .We are not a cookie cutter construction business that can be easily duplicated .

Seems as if you're worried that someone wants to infiltrate your business for the sake of learning your trade secrets and then opening up a business of their own. If someone is so hellbent on doing so I don't see how signing a piece of paper will stop them.

 

[Fulthrotl]

Seems as if you're worried that someone wants to infiltrate your business for the sake of learning your trade secrets and then opening up a business of their own. If someone is so hellbent on doing so I don't see how signing a piece of paper will stop them.

i have a strategy..... let's all go to work for rewire, sign his agreement,
but expand the language to include the united states in toto. and make it
mutually binding. what's good for the goose is good for the rewire. any
court will uphold that as fair and equitable. if two people want to engage
in absurd agreements, well, that is the basis of a lot of contract law, isn't it?

then, we all quit.... then he can spend the next year watching all of us carefully
to see if we steal any of his valuable work... at the same time, he can't do any
work within 25 miles of any of us.... doesn't matter if we were gonna do the work
or not, he can't touch it.

come to think of it, i have an internet web site, and that expands my "location"
to the internet.

rewire, you cannot work within 25 miles of the internet. that is my "location".
please step away from the keyboard at least 25 miles.

once you have done that, maybe then we can all get some work done.

 

[rt66electric]

How do you plan to hire decent employees after the "word" gets out

How do you plan to hire decent employees after the "word" gets out

What do out of work electricians talk about at the supply House???
My last employer was terrible to work for.. I would rather starve, or work as a plumber than be in so-and-so's van.

Why is there "ALWAYS" an employment ad for BIG-AD electric??

They have three happy employees and 300 ex-employees.

Would "YOU" go to work for someone who asked you to sign a NDA ???

I agree with a lot of what IWIRE said

DUDE , you are doing fine, don't shoot yourself in the foot.

It is easier to chase after NEW business than backpeddle after OLD business.

Look forward, instead of, looking like you need a cranium compressor for that BIG-Head.

I sorry to be blunt, but putting a NDA in front of me is an insult . If we were playing poker it would seem as if you had one ace and nothing else.

Most good customers like seeing the same faces at their shop, They are aware that everytime a new face is sent to their shop, time is lost, looking for... the bathroom, where is the breaker box, prettygirls in the office, new-guy chit-chat etc,etc.

Your business is retaining GOOD electricians, most are happy with a decent truck/van, easy clean work, and a reliable 40hrs/week.

Most electricians are not happy with are... Unreasonable bosses wives whose sole purpose is make them jump through hoops like a circus dog, Double standards... do I have to work with THAT butthead... overworked and underpaid... I'm sorry that your son is in the hospital, but if you leave work now, your work life will be miserable because you are not a team member... Where did you learn electrician??-- BUSINESS school??.. NO you can't take time off to go do whatever, because someones else's lack of planning and preparation, is now YOUR emergency... Oh and by the way..thank you very much for your hardwork and skills and making me $$$$$$$ and here is your bonus...($X,xx) .. I love your new boat,car vacation house, (etc ) , I cannot afford diapers.

Your Business depends on Quality employees, not on your proper decisions on weather to buy advertising, or new trucks

 

[Rewire]

when we first announced we would be drug testing employees we had one employee get up and walk out. He was a good employee and I really did not want to lose him. Everyone was told that the first test did not mean anything if they didnt pass they would get a retest in 30- days. I did not ask him why he left I just got his check. The rule was not about the employee it was about protecting the business it had nothing to do with fear or control or being qa bad boss it was about protecting the company. Alot of people had a hard time with drug tests even those who didn't use drugs but they have a choice to not work where they are required. Drug testing is becomming common and pretty much expected I know that non competes are not common for our industry but that does not make them bad . It is all about protecting the company.when I ask an employee to take a drug test it does not mean I dont trust them or I am afraid my employees are doing drugs it is just one of our requirements to work for our company.

 

[Rewire]

i am looking at it from the employer side. here is what is see:

you have a franchise mentality, and you have been taught by a franchise mentality.....
"this here is my territory, and i am gonna defend it against everyone
and everything. i OWN this." local labor unions of all types have this same mindset,
and you see how well it's working for them.

you don't trust anyone. my experience with this sort of behavior is that underneath
you figure everyone is thinking like you think, which is a logical assumption.
my experience is that people who don't trust anyone at all either are clinically
paranoid, or figure everyone is just like them.

you are completely controlled by the fear of being cheated. you have just spent
the better part of a day arguing with a bunch of folks on an inernet chat forum,
many of which think you are a bit batty for being this over the top on a service
business.

allow me to cut to the chase; sitting here behind a monitor debating how best to
pick flychit out of pepper is a lot less scary than getting out there and generating
business. how do i know this? 'cause i've done it.

so, the real question is not how to craft this sheet of paper for a $20 an hour muppet
to sign.

the real question is how are you going to overcome these fears that are controlling you:

fear of poverty
fear of being cheated
fear of failure
fear of rejection
fear of abandonment
fear of being NGE (not good enough)

welcome to the fourth column.

putting out of our minds the wrongdoings of others, real or imagined,
we look at our own side of the street. where have we been selfish,
inconsiderate, or frightened?

what have you done to be of service to the people around you today?

you have sat here defending your point of view to all comers for 7 pages.
none of that will help anyone you are really involved with in the real world.
none of this has helped a customer solve a problem, an employee earn
a living, and has served it would seem primarily as a testament to
your self centeredness.

you are way over analysing this. It is simply about protecting the business.

 

[iwire]

when we first announced we would be drug testing employees we had one employee get up and walk out. He was a good employee and I really did not want to lose him. Everyone was told that the first test did not mean anything if they didnt pass they would get a retest in 30- days. I did not ask him why he left I just got his check. The rule was not about the employee it was about protecting the business it had nothing to do with fear or control or being qa bad boss it was about protecting the company. Alot of people had a hard time with drug tests even those who didn't use drugs but they have a choice to not work where they are required. Drug testing is becomming common and pretty much expected I know that non competes are not common for our industry but that does not make them bad . It is all about protecting the company.when I ask an employee to take a drug test it does not mean I dont trust them or I am afraid my employees are doing drugs it is just one of our requirements to work for our company.

Again, a non-compete for 25 miles, for 1 year has nothing at all in common with a drug test.

 

[billdozier 78]

comparing drug testing good idea to non complete clause =:lol::lol::lol:

 

[Rewire]

Again, a non-compete for 25 miles, for 1 year has nothing at all in common with a drug test.

both are requirements to work at our company that is what they have in common. someone refuses a drug test because they feel I have no right to control what they do then they dont work here if someone refuss to sign a non compete because they feel I have no right to control what they do they dont work here. No one is forced to do either if you choose not to then thank you goodbye.

 

[Rewire]

comparing drug testing good idea to non complete clause =:lol::lol::lol:

so which one would hurt your business more a guy smokes alittle weed on a saturday or a guy leaves your business with your customer data base?

 

[zbang]

so which one would hurt your business more a guy smokes alittle weed on a saturday or a guy leaves your business with your customer data base?

Depends. The guy that smoke a little weed on Saturday often (not always) smokes a little every day, and some major facilities push their requirements down onto it's contractors. I don't like drug tests for a variety of reasons, which I'll leave out, but if someone is operating large machinery, driving a company vehicle with company insurance, or maybe wiring the controls on a 4000a switchboard, then I might want greater assurance that they're not impaired.

OTOH, the guy leaving with the customer database is stealing and also violating most non-disclosure agreements. If he's going to do that, do you thing a non-compete will stop him from setting up shop? Most NDA's prohibit taking company information when leaving the company, but that can't stop someone from taking and using what's in their head, like skills learned or processed developed. This is a big deal in the tech industry- microsoft hires someone from google or vis versa. At the level of most daily-grind electricians, I suspect that most lawyers would tell you not to bother. (In silicon valley, I don't think I've ever heard of a non-compete for anyone not in sales and below the highest levels of the company.)

I think someone already mentioned that most non-competes become invalid if the business terminates the employee, they only work if the employee leaves.

There really isn't much you can do if a non-key employee leaves and starts their own business. I think you're worrying too much about non-compete agreements and not enough about non-disclosures and keeping existing employees happy so they don't leave and start their own shops.

 

[iwire]

so which one would hurt your business more a guy smokes alittle weed on a saturday or a guy leaves your business with your customer data base?

Both could be a problem

But requiring a drug test is nothing at all like saying 'You can't work near me for year'.


I think you know that and are just stirring the pot.

 

[Stevareno]

you can still work in your chosen profession just not within 25 miles of me. And we are an at will state so good luck with the court thing.

I don't see how that would be enforceable. First and foremost, because if I were to go to work for another employer, I have to go where he sends me. It would be unreasonable for him to have to keep a list of what areas I'm "not allowed" to work in. Also, it wouldn't be my fault if he didn't have work outside the 25 mile radius. You can't prevent me from earning a living.

Answer the questions below (taken from other posters).

• Does the agreement specify where the 25 miles is measured from?
• Does it prevent the employee from working for an employer who is located in the banned area where the work is actually outside the banned area?
• What is the penalty if I break this agreement?
• What if after my employment with you ends, am I prevented from working for the contractor just down the road, or just prevented from being President, VP, or other executive position.
• If I work for someone else and your customer chooses to hire my new employer...???
• How about if I go to work for a contractor that is based 50 miles away, and they get a contract for a project right across the street from you?

 

[kwired]

Getting employees to sign this is likely easier for the relatively new guy to the trade. You have all kinds of advantage over them as they really have no trade tricks and secrets and etc. information that is of much value to damaging your business.

Now take most of the guys here that have had negative responses to the idea. Most of them are guys that could potentially be valuable assets in some way to your company if you were to hire them. Along with their experience and knowledge comes the threat that they can cause some damage to your business - especially if they leave you. This is what this restriction is all about.

Most of us that have responded here, if were considering taking a job for you and you want us to sign this will decline to sign it for good reason - as much as you want to protect your company, we want to protect ourselves.

Some may even storm out very mad about it, but if given time to think about it, may give you a counter offer, something like - Any clients, tricks, secrets, or other items I brought into this company because of what I do, is mine to take with me when I leave. How willing are you to sign such counter offer? Sounds just as fair of a game to me.