restrictive covenant

[fmtjfw]

If all you are offering is a job, all I am agreeing to is one days work for one days pay. I'm okay with that.

In order to ask more you need to be willing to give more.

I don't remember ever being asked to sign a non-compete as part of the hiring process. Non-disclosures, sure. During one take-over the pirates that were taking over the company tried to have everyone sign non-competes. In Massachusetts, you have to provide compensation (think how contract law requires "consideration" (normally money)) to add an agreement to a currently "at will" employee. They tried again, offering stock options worth perhaps $2000, which was less than my original signing bonus. I handed the stock options package back to my boss and told him to give it to someone else (some non-salary workers who were absolutely key to the operation were hacked off that the didn't get offers for instance). Later they terminated me (odd?) and as part of the severance package they again demanded the non-compete. I checked, they were a California Corporation, and the non-compete was completely bogus under CA law and almost completely bogus under MA law, so I took the money and ran.

The idea of requesting me as an employee to sign a non-compete for less than say $175,000 in today's money, is well -- ROFL

Now if you will pay me during the non-compete period, that may be a different thing. This is the basic view in MA courts (or was when I worked there).

 

[LEO2854]

It's even worse than that.



If you leave under any terms you would be subject to this.

I know ,any reason.

 

[LEO2854]

So what your saying Rewire is if you get slow and lay me off I can't go up the road to feed myself. Is this accurate? You really think your going get the best guys? I doubt you get the best of the rest. Unless your paying some ridiculous amount of flow. Most great electricians have a goal in mind professionally. And if that goal can't be achieved at your company who are you to prevent them from pursuing it elsewhere?

That is exactly what he is saying.

 

[mivey]

We are in the process of developing our non compete clause...next we are going to have a non disclosure agreement

I might could buy the non-disclosure but the non-compete would be a tough sell.

Sounds to me like this could apply to many businesses that would never ask their new hires to sign such a document. Also sounds like you're spending a lot of time and energy on paranoia.

That's a definite.

the cat is out of the bag the minute you hire someone and show them how to sell the plan

Exactly.

If you are so worried about former employees taking your customers then that makes it clear to me that your not doing the best job you can to keep your customers

...or employees as well maybe?

 

[Rewire]

First I would not work for any company that would make it so I could not work in my chosen profession for any amount of time after being fired and if I was working for you and you tried to have sign that I would refuse.,what are you going to do then?,Fire me?. Go right ahead and I'll see you in court.

If you are so worried about former employees taking your customers then that makes it clear to me that your not doing the best job you can to keep your customers happy and will lose them to your compition anyways.

you can still work in your chosen profession just not within 25 miles of me. And we are an at will state so good luck with the court thing.

 

[Rewire]

Sounds to me like this could apply to many businesses that would never ask their new hires to sign such a document. Also sounds like you're spending a lot of time and energy on paranoia.

you see this in other industries why not ours? Electricians seem always to be behind the curve. Start a business devote the time and effort not to mention money to build it then get back to me on the paranoia thing.

 

[petersonra]

Most states either have laws or court rulings that prevent enforcement of such things against most employees. It is not illegal to ahve them in place, but they are just not enforceable most of the time.

For a principal or an officer of the company, they are can be usually be enforced. Sometimes even for salesmen.

You can protect your legitimately confidential information but it is very hard to pretend that the names and phone numbers and other contact information that people are routinely exposed to is confidential given how easy it is to come by.

 

[Rewire]

So what your saying Rewire is if you get slow and lay me off I can't go up the road to feed myself. Is this accurate? You really think your going get the best guys? I doubt you get the best of the rest. Unless your paying some ridiculous amount of flow. Most great electricians have a goal in mind professionally. And if that goal can't be achieved at your company who are you to prevent them from pursuing it elsewhere?

you can go down the road to feed yourself as long as it is 25 miles down the road. The non compete does not say you cannot work as an electrician it just states you must be 25 miles from me. If I lay you off you probably will need to go farther than 25 miles to find work. what this does is keep you from getting laid off then competing with me for limited work it is about protecting my business.

 

[petersonra]

How exactly would you defend against it? Remember in my state they are enforcable. Or are you just parroting what someone elser posted? You willingly sign a document that ristricts you from working within 25 miles of our business for a year. Now just why should you not be held to what you agreed to?

Has there ever been a single case in your state where such an agreement has been held enforceable against a low level employee? Ask your legal service that.

Non-disclosure - yes. Non-compete is a totally different animal. Most states you just do not have the right to enforce an agreement that prohibits someone from working in his chosen field, except for very narrowly tailored situations.

In any case, it is not like anything you are doing has not been done elsewhere and probably more effectively.

 

[Rewire]

If all you are offering is a job, all I am agreeing to is one days work for one days pay. I'm okay with that.

In order to ask more you need to be willing to give more.

it is part of the hiring process just like a drug test you refuse you dont get hired. Our non compete does not stop you from working elsewhere as long as it is 25 miles away. Our hiring process is a little more involved than you show up one day and go to work the next. By the time you get to the pre hire interview you will have seen the benefits of working here and the potential for income.

 

[Rewire]

Has there ever been a single case in your state where such an agreement has been held enforceable against a low level employee? Ask your legal service that.

Non-disclosure - yes. Non-compete is a totally different animal. Most states you just do not have the right to enforce an agreement that prohibits someone from working in his chosen field, except for very narrowly tailored situations.

In any case, it is not like anything you are doing has not been done elsewhere and probably more effectively.

yes there have been cases not in our industry but in other service sectors Ours is crafted very narrowly it does not say you cannot work in your chosen field. It states you must be 25 miles from me.

 

[petersonra]

yes there have been cases not in our industry but in other service sectors Ours is crafted very narrowly it does not say you cannot work in your chosen field. It states you must be 25 miles from me.

25 miles is a long way. I think you are going to end up having trouble enforcing a total ban on someone working in your industry. You could certainly try. I think it would be fun to watch the judge laugh you out of court for claiming a common tradesman has knowledge so secret that the only way to protect your business is for the tradesman to starve for a year.

In any case, does the agreement specify where the 25 miles is measured from? I am having a hard time thinking any competent lawyer would allow such vague wording in a document that might actually have to be defended in court some day. Does it prevent the employee from working for an employer who is located in the banned area where the work is actually outside the banned area?

Is there a union contract involved here? Most times this kind of thing is just plain prohibited by the contract you agreed to with the union if you are a union shop as all conditions of employment are covered by the contract.

 

[__dan]

I'm sure if you study the field, there is very little or no novel and truly original technology or insight. Dig far enough and you'll find an author instructing your methods 50 or 75 years earlier. Or you may find their stuff is better. You may have a synthesis of the methods of others or trial and error experience, but not novel origination. There are 60 years of derivations and expansions of Napolean Hill and Dale Carnegie.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Think_and_Grow_Rich

There is prior art for so much it is beyond imagination. You could work to discover what has been discovered 50 to 100 or more years earlier.

The non compete would only be valid in principle during the time of employment, if you did not want the guys doing side jobs that would be a valid concern.

Expecting the guys to spend a year with their thumb in their butt after working for you, yes you can find idiots and legions of clueless fakers to sign something like that, but as a contractor representing yourself as participating fairly in a balanced manner in the industry, your requirement translates literally as "I own you and your little dog too". If I saw that I would assume you depend on idiots for your customers and your employees, people who cannot read and understand the contract terms or do basic math, look at something by the numbers, to see the difference between good and bad.

You are welcome to compete with me anytime, anywhere. Competition expands and improves the market. I would love to see you do something like this:

 

[fmtjfw]

yes there have been cases not in our industry but in other service sectors Ours is crafted very narrowly it does not say you cannot work in your chosen field. It states you must be 25 miles from me.

OK, Judge, you see I have trade secrets and methods and customer lists. I don't want someone I've laid off to use that information to complete with me. All I ask is that they work 25 miles away.

What would that cost them?, Gee I don't know. Let's see 12MPG in a superduper pickup, gas at $3.75, why only $15.63 roundtrip.

Judge you're suggesting that I mail my former employee $15.63 each day, outrageous, it's an expense my laid off employee should be burdened with. Where is my lawyer!

 

[PetrosA]

I'm under NDA with a large, international test equipment manufacturer - not as an employee, but as a guy who tests their stuff. I get cool toys to play with and keep my mouth shut. There is NO WAY I'd sign an NDA to work as an electrician. You'd have to offer me something way more concrete than promises of future wealth to make it worth my while.

To quote a savvy business guy I once knew:

"No one can pay you as much as I can promise to pay you."

Your NDA/NCA sounds a lot like that to me.

 

[kwired]

What is the penalty if I break this agreement? If I am confident enough in my ability to compete in the area, I might not care about paying the penalty if I have to.

What if after my employment with you ends, am I prevented from working for the contractor just down the road, or just prevented from being President, VP, or other executive position. If I work for someone else and your customer chooses to hire my new employer...???

How about if I go to work for a contractor that is based 50 miles away, and they get a contract for a project right across the street from you?

 

[zog]

I'm sure if you study the field, there is very little or no novel and truly original technology or insight.

Nonesense, that is just an ignorant statement. Many companies, including mine spend a lot of money in R&D and technical breakthroughs are very profitable. Is there some new way to wire a house? I have no idea, I doubt it, but this is a big trade we are in and there are new ideas and inovations all the time.

 

[zog]

I had my former employee's sign an agreement.

The no compete was on the customer list, and on some of my software extras that I developed and used.

The way I worded it was; that with any future job, no assoiciation could be made to contact any existing customer for a period one year time.

Exactly, the company paid you to develop those programs and they should own them, they have to protect themselves from you making a copy and going out to compete with them.

The point of a NC is that it can be enforced if needed, but rarely used.

Anyone here know how Bill Gates got rich? Yeah, exactly the point.

 

[LEO2854]

...or employees as well maybe?

Yes that as well.

 

[LEO2854]

you can still work in your chosen profession just not within 25 miles of me. And we are an at will state so good luck with the court thing.

At will does not matter ,What you are doing is trying to strip someone of their right to make a living without compinsation By holding them to a contract that should terminate when the paychecks stop.