Anyone Else Sick of This?

[KVA]

I make enough to pay the bills and keep a few employees busy. If there is not enough work coming in, then we just work short days. No sense in working if you're just doing it for free.

I don't work for free i give dirt cheap prices once in a blue moon if times are tough. I can't sit at home like you.

 

[drspec]

Im not trying to be difficult here.

Just think about it this way. If you would normally charge $500 for a job and you had $300 in material and overhead, that would leave you with a profit of $200. Now, since you are slow, you would be willing to do that same job for $375. Is it really worth it to profit that $75?
With me when I am faced with that situation, I would choose to sit at home.

 

[KVA]

Im not trying to be difficult here.

Just think about it this way. If you would normally charge $500 for a job and you had $300 in material and overhead, that would leave you with a profit of $200. Now, since you are slow, you would be willing to do that same job for $375. Is it really worth it to profit that $75?
With me when I am faced with that situation, I would choose to sit at home.

Well you are making money to cover your overhead for the week/month. So any more work you get after that is less money you need to make to cover overhead for that week or month.

 

[kwired]

Im not trying to be difficult here.

Just think about it this way. If you would normally charge $500 for a job and you had $300 in material and overhead, that would leave you with a profit of $200. Now, since you are slow, you would be willing to do that same job for $375. Is it really worth it to profit that $75?
With me when I am faced with that situation, I would choose to sit at home.

There is a difference between working dirt cheap and results are net losses vs. lowering prices and still having net income. If I have to lower price to net loss levels, sitting at home actually results in higher net.

 

[Fulthrotl]

There is a difference between working dirt cheap and results are net losses vs. lowering prices and still having net income. If I have to lower price to net loss levels, sitting at home actually results in higher net.

well, in days no longer resembling where we are at now, if a contractor
was slow, they'd sometimes tread water on a job with no profit, to keep
their key people in jobs, so they had key people when stuff showed up
later.... when you have 8 people on a job, and all of them are foremen,
you know where that's at.

that was for a specific business who was slow on work for a temporary
period, for whatever reason.

that model no longer is necessary. if you are slow, you explain to your
employees we are slow, and you'll do the best you can to keep them
working. there isn't an economy here where they are likely to scamper off
to another contractor, is there?

truth is, the whole system is stalled. the baby boomers got all their
retirement money spent by fighting a war in the middle east, and
by a financial industry that has done with our financial exchanges
what what a good chef can do with two eggs in a souffle. more and
more air fluffed in, and while it looks really pretty coming to the table,
there isn't a whole lot there to eat.

and the idea that changing the hood ornament on this next tuesday
will change how the car goes down the road isn't realistic.

so you have grumpy gray haired people who can't retire, and college
students taking extra courses, 'cause there aren't any jobs for them
when they graduate.

we are now dealing with the long term problem that the baby boom
that followed the end of WWII has delivered upon our doorstep.
there has been a huge knot in the population that has bent the entire
country to it's needs and desires for the last sixty years. we built
legions of schools to educate them, huge tracts of houses for them...

and now they are reaching the end of their productive years, and there
is no means of caring for them. the vietnam war and it's drain on the
economy was before the boomers had built up substantial equity in
the country, so there was a do over on that debacle financially.

the decisions we made from 2001 until the collapse in 2008 history
i suspect will show as the greatest financial debacle of our history,
surpassing even the 1920's. collectively and individually we have
spent money like a drunken sailor on a three day pass for 50 years
now, and we are broke.

we have a huge aging population without enough money to get to
the end of the show, and no way to get more, as they are nearing
the end of their productive years.

and neither blue or red can do a damn thing about it. just sayin....

that is what I'M sick of...

 

[jmellc]

Thanks guys.

Yes, I know some people have stuff they bought before hard times but some of the people I deal with are still spending freely for things they really want. i

 

[stevenje]

and the idea that changing the hood ornament on this next tuesday
will change how the car goes down the road isn't realistic.

Best quote of the year. :thumbsup:

 

[haskindm]

People that have money usually have it because they spend it wisely. We have all heard of lottery winners or sports figures who have had millions of $ and lost them all. The majority of wealthy people work hard for their money, or work hard investing it wisely. You can bet that the guy shopped for a good deal on that house, pool, and those fancy cars. You need to explain to him why the price is what it is and exactly what he is getting for that price. Hopefully, when he get a low-ball price from someone else he will ask the right questions to determine why their price is lower than yours. People with money are looking for VALUE, not just low price. Your job is to convince them that you are providing a good value and quality work. If you compete on price alone, you will lose every time. I don't want to be known as the cheapest, I want to be known as the best! Why would he buy the Ferrari, when a Chevrolet or Ford is so much cheaper? Both would get him to his destination and the Ford or Chevy may be more reliable! The Ferrari was a better value and gave him something that the others couldn't.

 

[jmellc]

People that have money usually have it because they spend it wisely. We have all heard of lottery winners or sports figures who have had millions of $ and lost them all. The majority of wealthy people work hard for their money, or work hard investing it wisely. You can bet that the guy shopped for a good deal on that house, pool, and those fancy cars. You need to explain to him why the price is what it is and exactly what he is getting for that price. Hopefully, when he get a low-ball price from someone else he will ask the right questions to determine why their price is lower than yours. People with money are looking for VALUE, not just low price. Your job is to convince them that you are providing a good value and quality work. If you compete on price alone, you will lose every time. I don't want to be known as the cheapest, I want to be known as the best! Why would he buy the Ferrari, when a Chevrolet or Ford is so much cheaper? Both would get him to his destination and the Ford or Chevy may be more reliable! The Ferrari was a better value and gave him something that the others couldn't.

He knew I would give him good work. I was referred to him by an electrician who'd done his work for years but is slowing down for health reasons. He would tell how this guy did this or that & I'd pick up & say why something was a good practice, long term quality, etc.

I agree the job is a lot of money. I told him when we talked that work was high & that I couldn't believe the prices I had to charge for work or the prices I have to pay for it. To him, it probably looks like a very simple job. It is a simple job as far as what to do, how to do it. Just a lot of work to actually do it. Turning multiple corners with LB's or 90's, heating & bending offsets, kicks, etc. Drilling 1 inch holes through 4x4's, etc. He didn't bother to ask any questions about methods, materials, etc. just "that's way over budget, I can't do it right now." So I am sure that price was all he was considering. Well, he can just run a drop cord 50 feet over & rig up something from that. He probably already has a cord & won't even have to buy one.

Re: the Ferrari. Sometimes I wish I were selling things instead of service. People perceive more value from things, more status symbol. They equate paying for work with being ripped off. I see this principle at work when someone pays $800 for a fancy wall mounted TV, then balks at $200 to install power & cable for it. Even had 1 couple getting 2 TV's. I spent 2 hours 1 evening helping them decide where to place them, crawled attic & crawlspace looking for power/cable. I quoted $250 to install power/cable & also to hang the TV's. The woman turned chilly at that very moment & thanked me for coming out. I knew I would not hear from them. After all, it's just a few wires & a couple of boxes, right? A few faceplates?

 

[wolfman56]

FYI FULTHROTL

FYI FULTHROTL

I'm a baby boomer and your comments are really very caustic, as though you say it's all the boomers fault. Did you know;

>>>> the baby boomers got all their retirement money spent by fighting a war in the middle east, and
by a financial industry<<<<

The boomers are the guys that had to do the fighting, none of them were old enough to be in politics long enough to have anything to do with starting, managing, or ending the war. Boomers didn't have a choice, they didn't spend the money.

>>>>we are now dealing with the long term problem that the baby boom that followed the end of WWII has delivered upon our doorstep.
there has been a huge knot in the population that has bent the entire country to it's needs and desires for the last sixty years. we built
legions of schools to educate them, huge tracts of houses for them...<<<<

You make it sound like boomers sucked the life out of the economy. The boom was created because of unprecedented growth of the economy and infrastructure after WW2. Isn't growth of economy and infrastructure what everyone wants? Times looked good with lots of opportunity, the work was there, a man could do almost anything and make a modest living. Money was flowing quite well. Boomers did not drain the economy.

>>>>and now they are reaching the end of their productive years, and there is no means of caring for them. the Vietnam war and it's drain on the
economy was before the boomers had built up substantial equity in the country, so there was a do over on that debacle financially.<<<<

The boomers were forced to fight a war they had no choice in, then finance it by having their earnings taken to pay for it in the years after. There have been many reports showing that social security was beginning to have very large surpluses due to the massive group of boomers paying into it. The government, (most older than boomers) chose to spend the money on other things. So how is this the fault of the boomers?

>>>>the decisions we made from 2001 until the collapse in 2008 history i suspect will show as the greatest financial debacle of our history, surpassing even the 1920's. collectively and individually we have spent money like a drunken sailor on a three day pass for 50 years now, and we are broke.<<<<

This is true, if you study the relationship of the 20s, and now you would see that the real reason for these problems is simply greed. The uneven distribution of wealth. In the simplest terms, the wealthy owners of the factories refuse to pay the workers enough for the them to afford to buy the things that are made there. And there are not enough wealthy owners to consume all the products their factories make. Credit made this problem invisible, but has now caught up with everyone.

>>>>we have a huge aging population without enough money to get to the end of the show, and no way to get more, as they are nearing the end of their productive years.<<<<

This is also true. Yet during all our productive years we've paid in more any others before us. (More than our fair share.) Our fathers never had to pay into social security like we have had to all our lives! The rates have increased steadily my entire working life and I'm not retired yet, still paying in, with the prospect that in 8 years when I retire there may be nothing. Where did all that $$ I paid in go? The $$ I could be paying into a retirement fund is getting taken by social security right now, its not going to benefit me at all.

>>>>that is what I'M sick of...<<<<

We all are. It's easy to try to assess blame on someone, it makes us feel better about ourselves. Actually, today's problems are biblical, it says in the bible that its not mankinds right or ability to rule himself. And the nations are proving it!

RW

 

[renosteinke]

RW, you completely missed an opportunity there ....

Attitudes aside, there is no doubt that we are in unusual times - and there are some major changes coming that can't be ignored.

I'll forgive fulthrottle for rambling - as I am guilty of that sometimes. This thread is about the 'squeeze' and how to handle it. The topic of how our economy will change in the next few years is a worthy one, and I invite you to start a thread on that topic.

 

[Fulthrotl]

I'm a baby boomer and your comments are really very caustic,
as though you say it's all the boomers fault.

RW

ok... first and foremost, i'm 57.

and none of the baby boomers had a say in all arriving at once.
i'm not saying it was their fault. i'm not saying anything other
than our countries population doubled in four years.

i'm not addressing anything the boomers did or didn't do.

they didn't have a say in WWII and their only participation in
Vietnam was as cannon fodder, usually.

the only problem they are causing is crowding the isles, 'cause
60% of our population is in an age span of 5 years or so.

and the logistics of a population curve with a bulge in it like that
is a PITA. when they needed something, they all needed it at the
same time. like primary schools, etc.

and when the financial collapse in 2008 ate most everyones lunch,
then the traditional life path of birth, education, work life, and retirement
got screwed with.

that's all i'm saying. i'm not blaming anyone for coming home from world
war two, and busily engaging in what people do when they aren't fighting.
but the problem is that 10 years from now, half the country is gonna
be a bit too old for work, and dealing with that is gonna be a challenge.

as for me being caustic, i've had that mentioned to me before,
but i appreciate the update.... :bye:

 

[lt2000]

I'm a baby boomer and your comments are really very caustic, as though you say it's all the boomers fault. Did you know;

>>>> the baby boomers got all their retirement money spent by fighting a war in the middle east, and
by a financial industry<<<<

The boomers are the guys that had to do the fighting, none of them were old enough to be in politics long enough to have anything to do with starting, managing, or ending the war. Boomers didn't have a choice, they didn't spend the money.

>>>>we are now dealing with the long term problem that the baby boom that followed the end of WWII has delivered upon our doorstep.
there has been a huge knot in the population that has bent the entire country to it's needs and desires for the last sixty years. we built
legions of schools to educate them, huge tracts of houses for them...<<<<

You make it sound like boomers sucked the life out of the economy. The boom was created because of unprecedented growth of the economy and infrastructure after WW2. Isn't growth of economy and infrastructure what everyone wants? Times looked good with lots of opportunity, the work was there, a man could do almost anything and make a modest living. Money was flowing quite well. Boomers did not drain the economy.

>>>>and now they are reaching the end of their productive years, and there is no means of caring for them. the Vietnam war and it's drain on the
economy was before the boomers had built up substantial equity in the country, so there was a do over on that debacle financially.<<<<

The boomers were forced to fight a war they had no choice in, then finance it by having their earnings taken to pay for it in the years after. There have been many reports showing that social security was beginning to have very large surpluses due to the massive group of boomers paying into it. The government, (most older than boomers) chose to spend the money on other things. So how is this the fault of the boomers?

>>>>the decisions we made from 2001 until the collapse in 2008 history i suspect will show as the greatest financial debacle of our history, surpassing even the 1920's. collectively and individually we have spent money like a drunken sailor on a three day pass for 50 years now, and we are broke.<<<<

This is true, if you study the relationship of the 20s, and now you would see that the real reason for these problems is simply greed. The uneven distribution of wealth. In the simplest terms, the wealthy owners of the factories refuse to pay the workers enough for the them to afford to buy the things that are made there. And there are not enough wealthy owners to consume all the products their factories make. Credit made this problem invisible, but has now caught up with everyone.

>>>>we have a huge aging population without enough money to get to the end of the show, and no way to get more, as they are nearing the end of their productive years.<<<<

This is also true. Yet during all our productive years we've paid in more any others before us. (More than our fair share.) Our fathers never had to pay into social security like we have had to all our lives! The rates have increased steadily my entire working life and I'm not retired yet, still paying in, with the prospect that in 8 years when I retire there may be nothing. Where did all that $$ I paid in go? The $$ I could be paying into a retirement fund is getting taken by social security right now, its not going to benefit me at all.

>>>>that is what I'M sick of...<<<<

We all are. It's easy to try to assess blame on someone, it makes us feel better about ourselves. Actually, today's problems are biblical, it says in the bible that its not mankinds right or ability to rule himself. And the nations are proving it!

RW

+1

 

[PetrosA]

I don't really care whose fault it is but i know this - since I graduated in 1988, we've been at war almost non-stop, and that cost a bundle. The highlights:

Iraq
Bosnia-Herzegovina
Somalia
Kosovo
Afghanistan
Iraq
Afghanistan

I also suspect that if I were to go to the bank and ask for a loan now that my four year old daughter would be paying back someday, I would be shown the door So now we'd each have to pay about $40,000 to pay off the present debt, so $160,000 for my family of four, or about what we paid for our house. I think part of the problem with customers' attitude toward our prices is that most Americans don't really have a grasp of the situation we're in as a nation. We've enjoyed underpriced products from abroad for consumption for almost two decades and rarely had to pay out of savings (i.e. not using credit) for serious local services, which we here on this forum offer. In the meantime, hourly rates in my area for an electrician have gone from $25 in 1990 to $75 in 2012. I suspect that now, when many people who need an electrician or other tradesman call, they're not spending funny money from a home equity loan, but spending their savings and that's forcing them to wake up and smell the roses. Good Morning America

 

[weressl]

my experience has been that when i have a 'tude about something,
i tend to attract people who give me a chance to get wrapped about
it.

the only common denominator in these situations you've been running
into is you.... and you seem to have a chip on your shoulder about
getting chiseled down on your pricing.... i'm qualified to observe that
in you, 'cause i tend to do the same thing, or get in a snit that i'm not
gonna get paid for something i do.

your 'tude about affluent people seems to mirror my own to a greater
extent, and it probably isn't serving you any more than mine did me.
one good thing about people with money, is that they actually can pay
for something. not saying they will, but they can.

working for people who can't pay for the work is frustrating as well.

so, if we get pissed at the people who can pay for it, and the ones
that can't pay for it.... that doesn't leave a lot of people left.

what i did that seems to be the only thing different, that has changed
enormously how much is coming in the door, is i started donating half
a day a week to charity.

and i quit being afraid that there wasn't enough for me. there is enough
for me. there is enough for you, as well.

pick something you can do that you might like to do. find someone
who needs a hand doing it... i went over sunday and put some outlets
in for some newleyweds who just bought a condo, and are running on fumes,
and can't afford to fix them otherwise.... 5 GFCI's, 3 in the kitchen, two in
the baths, and she asked me how much she owed me for them, and i said
"enjoy your house, and call me when you do the kitchen remodel in two years".

if they call, great, if they don't, still ok..... today, i go over to a commercial
building to do what i thought was give someone a price on power for two
15 ton package units, and instead, he says "no, we are putting them in saturday,
just send me a bill for what it costs. i know your price will be fair".

then a customer calls who's had budget constraints put on him and can't do much
at the moment, but turns out he needs a 225 amp panel by next week.......

the only thing that i'm doing different, is giving away half a day a week....

try it... whatchoo got to lose?

Great and inspiring post!

 

[Stevareno]

Yep. It annoys the hell out of me.
Bid a job for $20,000. Get hammered down to $17,500 because someone else lowballed the bid at $15,000. (exagerated numbers to prove the point).

Well guess what? Now we have to cut corners (nothing safety related).
Those $300 lighting contactors that are spec'ed on the print? Gone. We'll be using standard generic contactors.
The brushed aluminum plugmold for your telephone board that is not usually kept in stock? Buh-bye. If you are lucky, you will still get regular plugmold. Otherwise, a surface mount quad outlet.
The devices that are spec'ed on the print? Nope. We will be using the cheapest ones available.
Etc.

What puzzles me is how the lowest bidder came up with his number.
After actually starting the job and realizing what is all going to be involved, there is NO WAY the low bidder could have made a profit. In fact, I think he would have lost money. :blink:
I wish he had gotten the job at the price he bid. He would have been in for a rude awakening.

 

[stevemc67]

This is a good example of how NOTHING trickles down to you. I am convinced that money makes people mentally ill. However, you should give your price based on the job not the surroundings or person.

 

[rogermendaros]

Business management?

Business management?

Info from my "Flyer" given to each of my customers helped reduced the above experience in my case.
NCTIMES (North County times Oceanside, CA) 02/2000 issue: "I'VE READ IN YOUR COLUMN THAT ONLY LICENSED ELECTRICIANS SHOULD PERFORM ELECTRICAL REPAIRS. Now that I am selling my home, I've hired a handyman to make all types of repairs for the buyers including electrical work. I know that my handyman is competent to make these repairs, and I'd like to know why you disagree. xx
ANSWER: There are most likely some knowledgeable handymen, fully capable of performing some routine electrical repairs. However, to allege that a general repairman posseses adequate expertise in the highly complex field of electrical wiring is to demean the multifarious intricacies of that profession. Suffice it to say that the apprenticeship for an electrician consists of a five years program. As a seller, you also need to think about the liability. If any electrical problems should arise after the sale of your home, and if it can be shown that you contracted electrical repairs to someone other than a licensed electrician, the legal repercussion could enhance the income of at least two lawyers. My advice is to stick with the experts wherever safety-related repair works is needed. Barry Stone, Certified Building Inspector.

The above Q/A was included in my flyers given to each customers, and also available in my website. Believe me, it help to educate customers for using only the properly trained professionals. Legal process scares alot of people and they rather spend a few hundred dollars today than several thousands of $$ later if something went wrong. (Our mission is to educate customers about safety and not just delivering the work and my experience tells me that they really appreciate my concern. Giving credit to Mike H., I become more pro-active, thank you Mike).

 

[CopperTone]

you can't worry about not getting a job you quoted. When I am told that I didn't get a job or that they thought my price was too high, all I ever respond with is this.
"ok no problem, good luck with your project"
and I leave it at that, and I don't think about it ever again. I move on. You know how long a job will take to do it correctly and how much the material costs, you can't control how someone else will cut corners or is willing to make half as much as you would have. years ago I got worked up about this stuff, but realized it didn't change a thing getting all upset about it.
We have so much work that I decided to concentrate on the jobs we do land and do them the best we can and make that customer happy. We will hopefully get referrals from that happy customer and get even more work.

I had another guy say the other day my price was too high. I understand that from people who really don't have much. I don't love it, but I have to say no to things too, as I don't have any money nowadays either.

A man in one of the wealthiest old money neighborhoods in town had me price a job. Power to a new gazebo behind his pool. Ceiling fan, switch & receptacle. I would have to feed from a pole about 30 some feet away that has an existing GFI recep. Would have to cut the feeder conduit, set a j box, refeed recep. Down from j box to just above ground level, 5 feet across to brick wall. Strap to wall, turn 2 90's around corners, go 10-15 feet to adjoining chain link fence. Another 10-15 feet along fence, using driven struts to secure conduit. Turn LB through fence, under gazebo, 90 up through wall plate, offset to recep box. up from there, offset around a bracket, drill a 2x4, offset again to switch box. Up from there, back to back 45's to follow a bracket, across, kick, LB & angle up along roof rafter to bell box. Set bell box flush with a pt 5/4 board, set 10-32 rods down through it for fan support.

I figured a full day's work for 2 men. Not rocket science but a lot of work. Getting to other side of fence means walking a long distance to a gate & circling back, working 2 sides of a fence & tight spaces between fence & gazebo. Lots of heating & bending, driving struts, etc. I figured $995 and he said too much he couldn't do it. I told him price was good until end of year if he changed his mind. He has a mansion of a house, several high dollar cars, a pool, 2 gazebos, etc.

A man approached me in a parking lot that I thought looked familiar. Told me about a job on a duplex he needed done. Sounded very similar to another one I had priced over a year ago. Got his info and realized later he was the same guy. Another electrician had referred him to me. I met him on site, looked it over & next day delivered a quote to his wife & never heard back from him. I'm looking for my original quote. I will add 10% & call him with a price, telling him I priced it before & costs have gone up since then. He's not quite as flamboyant as the man above, but does have fairly expensive cars out front. He said he'd had quotes before but they were too high.

I WILL NOT cut prices for people like this. I may have to shut down but I will not be picked to death by people who freely spend on luxury items then want to beat me down. Either of these guys could buy a lesser car, pay me for my work & have money left over. I've had the same battle with people riding up on golf carts to greet me, or $7,000 Subaru yard vehicles. I don't envy people those luxuries, I'm glad someone can afford them. But they should not expect me to finance them. Also, I do not overprice for their deep pockets either. I just don't stretch to give them a break as I might do for a person of lesser means.

 

[kwired]

you can't worry about not getting a job you quoted. When I am told that I didn't get a job or that they thought my price was too high, all I ever respond with is this.
"ok no problem, good luck with your project"
and I leave it at that, and I don't think about it ever again. I move on. You know how long a job will take to do it correctly and how much the material costs, you can't control how someone else will cut corners or is willing to make half as much as you would have. years ago I got worked up about this stuff, but realized it didn't change a thing getting all upset about it.
We have so much work that I decided to concentrate on the jobs we do land and do them the best we can and make that customer happy. We will hopefully get referrals from that happy customer and get even more work.

And sometimes responding that way sends them the message you are sticking to your price. I have been in that situation before. Sometimes they are just trying to get you to come down. If you are in a market where someone will do it dirt cheap and on demand, you will lose the job anyway, but other times they will come back later asking if you are still interested in the job, and will be more accepting of your offer.