State Fire Marshal and polarity tester.

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Fulthrotl

~Autocorrect is My Worst Enema.~
Gee whiz, a whole lotta fuss over a fire marshall.

I will take a fire marshall over a health dept. inspector any day.

In VA, I dealt with FM's all the time and most were reasonable; however, the health inspectors tended to never budge an inch.

a "official" with an idiot plug? ok, sure. check them all for me.
let me know if you find anything amiss, i'll be happy to resolve it.

don't have an idiot plug? want to borrow mine? want to put the
receptacles in for me as well, for free? have at it, just test them
with the idiot plug when you are done, and make sure to get the
plates on straight.

i hate crooked plates....

a relatively harmless self important public official being self important....
i'll take four of them on my job, please... can you send a card table with
them so they can play canasta with each other if they get bored?

anyone who's ever had an on site OSHPOD inspector on a hospital job
will pray for a fire marshall with an idiot plug instead.
 

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
Gee whiz, a whole lotta fuss over a fire marshall.

I will take a fire marshall over a health dept. inspector any day.

In VA, I dealt with FM's all the time and most were reasonable; however, the health inspectors tended to never budge an inch.

I live in same state as OP, though I don't deal directly with fire marshal very often, I must say I am glad I do not. They have been relatively easy to deal with as far as what they want from the electrician, but that generally is not much. Mostly things like placement of egress lighting and exit signs is just about the extent of what I ever even talk to them about. They may require installation of a backup generator (legally required standby system), smoke or fire alarms, fire suppression hoods in commercial kitchens or require installation of other specific item at times, but other than requiring those items to be there, the electrical inspector is the one that makes sure I did wiring of it correctly, the fire marshal doesn't have much NEC knowledge maybe not even any more NEC knowledge than the average guy walking down the street.

I say I am glad I do not deal with them directly very often because I still see them and some of the things they enforce for other trades, and I must say there seems to be little consistency.

All of us electricians in this state know the NEC is the code we must follow for the majority of what we do, we all know it fairly well, and so do the inspectors that come check our work. There is consistency. Even if an inspector misinterprets some section of the code, you do not see something different allowed from one job to the next, but that doesn't happen a lot anyway, they do have regular meetings and go over such things and you get fairly uniform enforcement of NEC throughout their jurisdiction.

Fire marshal on other hand I see so much difference in one installation to the next I would go nuts if they had a more direct impact on my work. I assume they go by different NPFA publications for the most part, but I don't think it is nearly as organized as the state electrical division, I don't even know if they cite any NFPA codes when asking someone to change anything. I do know the general contractors and others that are asked to comply with things often don't know what they will be asked to do until he comes and inspects and gives them a list of things that need changed. Electricians OTH, if they very familiar with NEC at all, have a pretty good idea of what will be required from their installation before the inspector gets there.

A new office building I was working on once was a wood framed building with a full basement - very similar in construction to average dwelling. Early in the project, I stopped there one day and the builder was laying a block wall, partitioning off a section of the basement. I asked what was going on. Fire marshal says they either need less square feet of space or install fire sprinkler system. OK, sounds like something that should have come up on a plans review (which I doubt happens much on these smaller projects), so I understand this to some extent. They partitioned off maybe a couple hundred square feet of basement and filled it with gravel, making it unusable and effectively reducing the square footage of the building to a level where FM would not require sprinkler system. Unfortunately they partitioned off the space where my service was going to go - so I had to make changes to my plans:(

Later on same project I seen there was issues with fire rating of a door to the basement stairs. They had a couple different doors installed at one time or another and each was rejected. The builder was not what I would call much of a professional, but that is another story. Bottom line and most stupid thing I had seen in a while from a fire marshal was that he basically wanted a 1 hour door, didn't care if it was at top or bottom of stairs, he just wanted a 1 hour door between the basement and first floor. But the basement was unfinished and was nothing but mechanical area and storage area. He was so concerned about a 1 hour door at the stairwell but required no finish rating for the unfinished ceiling of that basement which had exposed wood framed joists and wood subfloor above it. If there had been a fire in that basement that ceiling would be giving in long before a 15 minute door that he was so concerned about would have had any issues:slaphead:
 

jumper

Senior Member
kwired, I have no idea how the FM's work in NE, but I will relate my experience working at a college in VA.

In 2006, the state passed a law requiring twice a year inspections of all college dorms by a FM after a fire at, I think, VCU.

The college where I worked was in a county where the electrical inspector was the FM also. We were too large for him to carry out that duty, so he was allowed to "invite" FMs out of Richmond VA to handle this for him.

These guys were very well versed/trained in the NEC, IRC, IBC, NFPA 72 ,13, 101 etc.

They wrote up violations with specific sections and time frames for when the correction had to be fixed and the re-inspection accomplished. This was mandated by law.

I would be assigned electrical tickets and it was my head if not corrected. While the college was overall responsible for fixing the problem, once my name was put on the tickets, I was legally accountable also.

Falsifying records (signing tickets that were not finished) and/or negligence in correcting these violations could have easily result in jail time for me.
 

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
kwired, I have no idea how the FM's work in NE, but I will relate my experience working at a college in VA.

In 2006, the state passed a law requiring twice a year inspections of all college dorms by a FM after a fire at, I think, VCU.

The college where I worked was in a county where the electrical inspector was the FM also. We were too large for him to carry out that duty, so he was allowed to "invite" FMs out of Richmond VA to handle this for him.

These guys were very well versed/trained in the NEC, IRC, IBC, NFPA 72 ,13, 101 etc.

They wrote up violations with specific sections and time frames for when the correction had to be fixed and the re-inspection accomplished. This was mandated by law.

I would be assigned electrical tickets and it was my head if not corrected. While the college was overall responsible for fixing the problem, once my name was put on the tickets, I was legally accountable also.

Falsifying records (signing tickets that were not finished) and/or negligence in correcting these violations could have easily result in jail time for me.

I have no problem with an inspecting agency that has adopts certain standards and gives references to those standards when they want corrections made. I do have a very big problem with ones that appear to be "winging it" and also don't seem to be very consistent from one place to the next that have similar circumstances. Maybe I am spoiled a little by the State Electrical Division here that does a pretty good job and is as about as fair as you can ask for. I wish more AHJ's in any field of jurisdiction would structure there ways in a similar fashion.

If you have installation that does not comply with code: if it is simple fix you can do while inspector is there without taking a lot of time, just fix it. If you want to challenge what code was violated you certainly can, they are just as human as you and do make mistakes. If you don't or can't fix it while inspector is there, he will tell you what he wants fixed, he generally doesn't write up anything official at that time but likely can give you some notes if you want. I really don't know what happens for sure because I seldom get any corrections I can't fix while he is there. If he needs to return to reinspect he is required by his own regulations to send you a correction notice which has a description of what is in violation, and references to the code section(s) that are violated. You are still free to challenge these if you feel he is wrong, that is what living in America is supposed to be like isn't it?

Now there are those that say it is not worth the fight, you are holding up the customer, maybe costing them money with the hold up, all that kind of stuff. Very true, you may give in just because it is easier. You have to make that decision each and every time something like this happens. But if you know the inspector is wrong, how long do you let him be wrong, he needs to learn to be right, and needs to learn that he is human and does make mistakes. Even if I gave in to his demands to change something that I thought was acceptable, just to get the customer on track in a timely manner doesn't mean I don't possibly still challenge that inspectors decision, maybe bring up facts about the incident to his supervisor, so they can at very least look into what happened and make a decision of whether or not it indeed was the right thing to require change at the time.

These inspectors do not rule the contractors, they do not rule the owners, they are performing a service for them, they need to do it as accurately as possible, negative feedback should make them self examine themselves and make necessary changes. Without negative feedback they can only assume they are doing things right.
 

Little Bill

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Tennessee NEC:2017
Occupation
Semi-Retired Electrician
In Tennessee, the State electrical inspectors are employeed by the Fire Marshal's office.

Yeah, but I heard that is required because Little Bill works in Tenn.....;)........:D

But then again, I am such a hack I got the feds inspecting my work.....:angel:

:rant:

That must be why the first thing they look for is smoke alarms!:p

Seriously, the smokes are one of the first things they look for. If the power is pulled for any reason, we must pull a permit to reconnect. If a permit is pulled, it automatically triggers the requirements for smoke alarms. That is whether or not I (we) ever enter a HO's house or not.

Case in point: I removed the meter base and riser/mast from a residence for the brick mason to brick behind it. I had to have the POCO cut the power so I could get into the meter base. I had to pull a permit and had to inform the HO that she would need to go buy battery operated smokes to pass inspection, even though I never entered her home.

This all comes from the state Fire Marshall's office.
 

jumper

Senior Member
:rant:

That must be why the first thing they look for is smoke alarms!:p

Seriously, the smokes are one of the first things they look for. If the power is pulled for any reason, we must pull a permit to reconnect. If a permit is pulled, it automatically triggers the requirements for smoke alarms. That is whether or not I (we) ever enter a HO's house or not.

Case in point: I removed the meter base and riser/mast from a residence for the brick mason to brick behind it. I had to have the POCO cut the power so I could get into the meter base. I had to pull a permit and had to inform the HO that she would need to go buy battery operated smokes to pass inspection, even though I never entered her home.

This all comes from the state Fire Marshall's office.

The smoke alarm, and if required CO2, requirement that they added if any permit is pulled is becoming, if not already, quite common.
 

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
The smoke alarm, and if required CO2, requirement that they added if any permit is pulled is becoming, if not already, quite common.

Go make sense of that when the smoke and CO alarms are not even covered in the electrical codes. If they are power line operated, the wiring to them is covered, but the requirement of when or where to have them is not in the NEC.
 

Little Bill

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Tennessee NEC:2017
Occupation
Semi-Retired Electrician
Go make sense of that when the smoke and CO alarms are not even covered in the electrical codes. If they are power line operated, the wiring to them is covered, but the requirement of when or where to have them is not in the NEC.

I think it's because the inspectors here work for the State Fire Marshall's office.
 

jumper

Senior Member
Go make sense of that when the smoke and CO alarms are not even covered in the electrical codes. If they are power line operated, the wiring to them is covered, but the requirement of when or where to have them is not in the NEC.

The requirement is usually part of the building code or an amendment to it. You still have to comply.
 

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
The requirement is usually part of the building code or an amendment to it. You still have to comply.
I understand. But it is not that way here. Most of the dwellings I work in have no applicable building codes, or at least no inspection if there would be a code. There is electrical permitting and inspections required. No AHJ is requireing smoke detectors, but they are often being put in anyway. Electrical inspectors do not evaluate if they are in proper placement, or if they even exist, they only look at the wiring if they are present.
 
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