404.2c

[bobbymari]

On a small commercial ti job and dont have my code book. Is anyone aware whether the required neutral at switch boxes is for commercial as well or is this residential only? this place is done in mc cable not flex is why i ask

 

[hardworkingstiff]

It appears to apply to commercial too.

You are aware of the raceway exception (since you mentioned it), but the other exception says

Cable assemblies for switches controlling lighting loads enter the box through a framing cavity that is open at the top or bottom on the same floor level, or through a wall, floor or ceiling that is unfinished on one side.

 

[bobbymari]

yea thanks im aware of exceptions these are closed walls done in mc cable so no pulling in a neutral here, thank u though bro. was hoping it specified dwellings , no such luck huh?

 

[hardworkingstiff]

yea thanks im aware of exceptions these are closed walls done in mc cable so no pulling in a neutral here, thank u though bro. was hoping it specified dwellings , no such luck huh?

Not the way I read it.

Did this come up at rough-in inspection?

 

[bobbymari]

i think u misunderstood me i was saying that my job are closed walls so im unable to pull a neutral with it being mc cable meaning im scre$6d, gotta change out this mc to flex

 

[Dennis Alwon]

i think u misunderstood me i was saying that my job are closed walls so im unable to pull a neutral with it being mc cable meaning im scre$6d, gotta change out this mc to flex

What about a 3 wire mc cable? but you are correct- you're screwed. some will interpret the fact that if there is a dropped ceiling then you could potential fish a wire down. I am not quite sure what the official interpretation would be.

 

[bobbymari]

yea dennis its already a 3 wire mc but its a,b switching hence whites already taken . bummer, not to big of a deal though pop a bigger hole in top playe fish a few flexes down, ill just do it so i dont have to explain why i didnt come rough inspection

 

[jumper]

12/4 or 14/4 MC is a pretty common item where I have worked.

 

[ActionDave]

Not the way I read it.

Did this come up at rough-in inspection?

Not the way I read it either.

i think u misunderstood me i was saying that my job are closed walls so im unable to pull a neutral with it being mc cable meaning im scre$6d, gotta change out this mc to flex

If you are able to change the mc to to flex without disturbing the finish then you should be able to use exception (2)

404.2(C)
Exception: The grounded circuit conductor shall be permit-
ted to be omitted from the switch enclosure where either of
the following conditions in (1) or (2) apply:
(1) Conductors for switches controlling lighting loads enter
the box through a raceway. The raceway shall have suf-
ficient cross-sectional area to accommodate the exten-
sion of the grounded circuit conductor of the lighting
circuit to the switch location whether or not the conduc-
tors in the raceway are required to be increased in size
to comply with 310.15(B)(3)(a).
(2) Cable assemblies for switches controlling lighting loads
enter the box through a framing cavity that is open at
the top or bottom on the same floor level, or through a
wall, floor, or ceiling that is unfinished on one side.

 

[bobbymari]

Not the way I read it either.

If you are able to change the mc to to flex without disturbing the finish then you should be able to use exception (2)

thats exactly what im saying, i wasnt saying i didnt need a neutral i was saying with existing mc there was no neutral. and walls are hollow metal studed walls so swapping out mc's with flex very doable, which was actually done today and since they are now flex runs they now have neutrals sittin in there capped off doing absolutly nothing. Love this newer code I tell ya

 

[ActionDave]

thats exactly what im saying, i wasnt saying i didnt need a neutral i was saying with existing mc there was no neutral. and walls are hollow metal studed walls so swapping out mc's with flex very doable, which was actually done today and since they are now flex runs they now have neutrals sittin in there capped off doing absolutly nothing. Love this newer code I tell ya

I'm saying you didn't need to change anything.

 

[bobbymari]

Ok so since I was able to cut a bigger hole in the top plate andfish in a flex I was ok with exception 2, now I see what you are saying . I had read that exception to mean hollowed at the top as in no top plate such as wall studs that continue up above a drop cieling so that there is an existing open access to fish in extra wiring if need be. So as you statedif its changable without disturbing finish youre good to go without making that change via second exception. Interesting, rough is on tuesday I'll see inspectors take on this as well cause I hate doing unecessary work. Thanks for ur input, it's appreciated