lack of knowledge

[growler]

Do many of you feel that you know more code than most of the inspectors you come across?

I try to know as much or more than the inspector and for a good reason. I'm responsible for the work I do and he/she is not.


The reason I probably know more than the inspector does about my jobs is that I study codes that are specific to the jobs that I'm doing. If I spend two months doing a job and an inspector spends 30 minutes inspecting it then who would be motivated to look up and read every code that is related to the work being done.

The inspector only has time to check at few items and make sure they are correct but I have to make sure the whole job is compliant. I'm responsible for every connection made and not just the one's the inspector sees.

 

[Besoeker]

I try to know as much or more than the inspector and for a good reason. I'm responsible for the work I do and he/she is not.


The reason I probably know more than the inspector does about my jobs is that I study codes that are specific to the jobs that I'm doing. If I spend two months doing a job and an inspector spends 30 minutes inspecting it then who would be motivated to look up and read every code that is related to the work being done.

The inspector only has time to check at few items and make sure they are correct but I have to make sure the whole job is compliant. I'm responsible for every connection made and not just the one's the inspector sees.

Laudable ethics.
:thumbsup:

 

[__dan]

Horror stories would make a pretty good thread.

It was ~ 1987, a contractor had a job wiring two buildings, five floors, 180 units of high end elderly retirement apartments. Their own guys were going to get sheetrocked right into the walls, so they borrowed a few of us scabs from a bigger faster contractor.

After two days we were racing down both sides of the hall putting MC into the metal studs, not carrying their bucket stools, throwing pallets of MC into the walls.

About four months in, towards the spring, I happened to look down a basement hallway and the temp light string was really dim. Had a hard time seeing 100 ft down the hall. It was under two seconds I knew the temp power had lost the neutral and if the temp lights were getting 40 volts, someone else on a power tool was getting 180.

I thought it was an interesting problem and started looking for the temp source. Walked another 80 ft through the basement, turned two corners, and came into this large space with a full circle of 12 electricians hanging out. I said "the temporary has lost the neutral". No one moved as much as a quarter of an inch. I asked, "where's the panel", couple of seconds pass, and one guy gave it up, "it's out back".

I leave and walked pretty directly to the outhouse with the temporary feed in it, opened the door, and I was alone. Put the meter on the disconnect and knew the UG feeder to the outhouse was bad coming in. Had my hand on the switch ready to pull and the foreman from the other building shows up. I explain, show the bad voltage, and during this minute the foreman from the first building shows up. I say, we have to shut it down, see a nod, and pull the switch.

As soon as I do that they start saying, "you can't do that, it will shut the job down" and I tell them, no, it's not going back on. I say, it's almost lunch, as long as we get power back by 1:00, we'll be okay (they were the only nonunion company allowed onsite). Quickly, we decide to chop the temporary and backfeed it from the normal power, which was just ready in both buildings. That works and I get in my truck and take off for a long lunch at the girl's college cafeteria. That was what they noticed, they went looking for me and couldn't find me.

Couple of days later I was talking with one of their young summer laborers, he was a 3rd or 4th year EE. He was telling me he was up on the upper floors with three electricians and they were complaining the drill was not working. He looked at it and took the metal temp outlet box, touched it to a lightbulb, then to the metal studding with the lightbulb in series, and was showing them, "hey I can light up the lightbulb". That made them take notice saying, "you can't do that" (while he was doing it).

Was a good company with good people and a reputation for doing good work, deservedly. Did not see any incompetence or cluelessness while I was there. That judgement I reserve for intentional malfeasance, intentional non feasance, intentional laziness resulting in negligence and loss, which fills my email outbox to this day.

Institutionalized waste keeps people employed (would like to quote Quigley on this but he may object, from his resting place).

 

[jap]

If you lost the neutral in the Feeder to the disconnect in the outhouse, How were they able to light the Light bulb from the
Temporary metal box to the metal stud? Was a Seperate Neutral and Ground not pulled on the load side of the outhouse disconnect?

 

[__dan]

After WWII, we sent Alfred Deming to Japan to give instruction on modern manufacturing methods. Lucky for us and the Japanese, he instructed his own methods and not the usual theology where surplus capacity has a negative impact on pricing power, profitability, and must be exorcised at all costs.

The Japanese asked him, 'how do we make perfect parts'? He responded, if your objective is perfect parts, you will never make anything, just waste. He instructed, run the machine expecting imperfect parts, but track imperfections and make small incremental changes to the manufacturing process. Expect to move towards perfection but not achieve or require it. Run the machine and track the result of the incremental changes.

The Japanese have a manufacturing philosophy of "kaizen", continuous improvement of the productive process.

My neighbor inspected aircraft parts and could not understand the Japanese productive process. He said, 'we make the parts and test them to fall within an allowable variance or tolerance from the specification'. 'That's what I do, compare the parts to the guages and watch the indicators move'. Then we get Japanese parts and test them with the guages, the indicators do not move, there is no variance. We think the guages are broken. "How do they do that"?

 

[__dan]

If you lost the neutral in the Feeder to the disconnect in the outhouse, How were they able to light the Light bulb from the
Temporary metal box to the metal stud? Was a Seperate Neutral and Ground not pulled on the load side of the outhouse disconnect?

Probably not. They had said it had failed before from getting hit while excavating. It may be that if they had a failed conductor of a 4 or 5 wire circuit, they reconnected 5 to 4 wire, H H H N, and abandoned the conductor that had opened. Don't know actually what they had done. I'm sure the guy knew what he was talking about when he said he touched the outlet metal to the box to the lightbulb, then to the studding, and it lit up the lamp. He was having fun with it, him the laborer, watching the other three guys sweat it.

I was not concerned further after the new temp feed was up.

 

[jap]

I could see it happening if the Feeder to to Outhouse was a 3 wire feeder and the Neutral and Ground were rebonded in the outhouse.

Sounds like a crappy deal.

 

[templdl]

All too often qualified people are smart enough not to want management positions. As such, it is the incompitant person?s who end up with the promotions. They end up not having the wherewith al to hire competent people because they have not clue as to who they would be.
Thus, incompetent people are hired. It is common for those to want to step up the ladder not staying in a position long enough to take the responsibility for the messes that they have created. I've worked for two of the largest electrical manufacturers in the industries and I've seen this at work.
Often times the incompetent hiring authority has no clue what hiring unqualified people acually end up costing a company instead of the cost savings that a qualified person would provide right from the start.

 

[cowboyjwc]

I try to know as much or more than the inspector and for a good reason. I'm responsible for the work I do and he/she is not.


The reason I probably know more than the inspector does about my jobs is that I study codes that are specific to the jobs that I'm doing. If I spend two months doing a job and an inspector spends 30 minutes inspecting it then who would be motivated to look up and read every code that is related to the work being done.

The inspector only has time to check at few items and make sure they are correct but I have to make sure the whole job is compliant. I'm responsible for every connection made and not just the one's the inspector sees.

I agree with this.

You need to know everything I know to a point, if you don't do medical or elevators or swimming pools or what not, I wouldn't expect you to know it. Your job is not to just make it work, but it's to make it work in a code compliant manner. All I'm doing is checking your work, if it's good I sign the card, if not I write you a notice.

Where many EC's start to make a mistake is when they work with combo inspectors and forget that there are guys like me out there that were or are EC's and know a lot of what you know too.

 

[Besoeker]

All too often qualified people are smart enough not to want management positions. As such, it is the incompitant person?s who end up with the promotions. They end up not having the wherewith al to hire competent people because they have not clue as to who they would be.
Thus, incompetent people are hired. It is common for those to want to step up the ladder not staying in a position long enough to take the responsibility for the messes that they have created. I've worked for two of the largest electrical manufacturers in the industries and I've seen this at work.
Often times the incompetent hiring authority has no clue what hiring unqualified people acually end up costing a company instead of the cost savings that a qualified person would provide right from the start.

I debated with myself whether to comment on your post.
To some extent, I have a foot on both sides of the fence. I'm moderately well qualified, I'm in a management role, but I can still wire up a plug and socket.
What I sometimes see here, on other forums, and in real life is a "them and us" attitude. Workers good, managers bad.
It may be true in some circumstances but, on the whole, managers have to make the business work. It is in their interests to do so. If the business doesn't work their but is out on the street.

 

[kwired]

It appears some of the smaller electrical contracting firms are the ones to blame for cutting corners and doing shoddy work. I have seen some things that were appalling. For the most part, the more sizeable electrical contracting firm have performed well on their respective projects.

Not only can I say that is kind of offensive to me, I generally disagree. Maybe I should ask how many employees you call a smaller firm? 1-5, up to 20, up to 50, somewhere over 50? When it comes to the 1-5 group I generally see a lot more attention to details than with firms with more employees, and this goes for more than just electrical contractors too.

I try to know as much or more than the inspector and for a good reason. I'm responsible for the work I do and he/she is not.


The reason I probably know more than the inspector does about my jobs is that I study codes that are specific to the jobs that I'm doing. If I spend two months doing a job and an inspector spends 30 minutes inspecting it then who would be motivated to look up and read every code that is related to the work being done.

The inspector only has time to check at few items and make sure they are correct but I have to make sure the whole job is compliant. I'm responsible for every connection made and not just the one's the inspector sees.

You are the one that knows the project inside and out if you are the one that did all the calculations, conductor sizing, raceway sizing, etc. I have inspectors question me occasionally if a raceway looks a little full or possibly needs deration factors applied, but seldom end up having to change anything because I was careful at making sure was in compliance. Like just last week one asked how many conductors were in a raceway and if I derated. I pointed out there were multiwire branch circuits in the raceway and the neutrals were not current carrying conductors - which ended that conversation pretty quick. He got the point I was well aware of what applies here and didn't question it any further.

 

[hardworkingstiff]

... Like just last week one asked how many conductors were in a raceway and if I derated. I pointed out there were multiwire branch circuits in the raceway and the neutrals were not current carrying conductors - which ended that conversation pretty quick. He got the point I was well aware of what applies here and didn't question it any further.

About 12 years ago I was wiring a Hess convenience store and had a ceiling inspection. I knew this inspector had a reputation for being the hardest guy to work with in the county. I was making up the last box in the back office when he walked in and he asked how many #12 wires I could get under the wire nut I was using? I answered it depended if it was stranded or solid and then told him how many of each would be allowed. He picked up the bag, read the rating label, and we didn't have any issues from then out.

I'm sure glad I didn't give my standard smart azz remark. :lol:

 

[shamsdebout]

I certainly did not intend to offend you in any way. I am simply relating my experiences to a post. My experiences are not absolute and I tried to refrain from using absolute terms.

With that being said, the worst electrical work I have ever witnessed in my life was from a small contracting firm. I would consider small, an operation with less than 10 employees. Again, this is not knocking any person working hard and making a living. I am just being objective, based on my experiences.


We may have had opposing experiences. Yours is valid and so is mine.

Not only can I say that is kind of offensive to me, I generally disagree. Maybe I should ask how many employees you call a smaller firm? 1-5, up to 20, up to 50, somewhere over 50? When it comes to the 1-5 group I generally see a lot more attention to details than with firms with more employees, and this goes for more than just electrical contractors too.

 

[ptonsparky]

...
It appears some of the smaller electrical contracting firms are the ones to blame for cutting corners and doing shoddy work. I have seen some things that were appalling. For the most part, the more sizeable electrical contracting firm have performed well on their respective projects...

Thank goodness I am now one of the larger ECs in this area. I now weigh 200+ lbs and have 3.5 employees besides myself. A year ago I was only 165 with 2.5, and may have taken that personally.

Size of firm has nothing to do with it. If anything larger shops may have a harder time keeping quality under control. I do not have the time to inspect every aspect of the welll over 140 manhours they put in every week for most of a year. Plus keep them in work. Heck of a lot easier to keep track of one apprentice when he/she was glued to you side most of the time.

 

[kwired]

About 12 years ago I was wiring a Hess convenience store and had a ceiling inspection. I knew this inspector had a reputation for being the hardest guy to work with in the county. I was making up the last box in the back office when he walked in and he asked how many #12 wires I could get under the wire nut I was using? I answered it depended if it was stranded or solid and then told him how many of each would be allowed. He picked up the bag, read the rating label, and we didn't have any issues from then out.

I'm sure glad I didn't give my standard smart azz remark. :lol:

Correct response should have been "are you asking how many I can get in it or how many it is listed for?

I certainly did not intend to offend you in any way. I am simply relating my experiences to a post. My experiences are not absolute and I tried to refrain from using absolute terms.

With that being said, the worst electrical work I have ever witnessed in my life was from a small contracting firm. I would consider small, an operation with less than 10 employees. Again, this is not knocking any person working hard and making a living. I am just being objective, based on my experiences.


We may have had opposing experiences. Yours is valid and so is mine.

I can recall a fair number of one man shops that were fairly incompetent at a lot of things, most of the ones I can think of are no longer in business for good reason, this also goes for more than just EC's.

 

[hurk27]

The beginning of understanding is the acknowledgment of ignorance.

I think Socrates is credited with saying something similar....

So true is this statement, We as humans tend to be our worst enemy when it comes to learning, we all want to be accepted by our peers and feel that we are an important part of the chain, no one who takes their work seriously wants to be left behind because of lack of knowledge or hear the words that we don't know what were doing but many times we do just that, we block our selves from learning new things by thinking we already know everything when in reality we don't have a full understanding of it.

When we can open our minds and realize there is no one on this planet that has a full understanding of everything then we can open our minds to learn new ideas.

I have found over the years that those who love the job that their doing tend to take the time to better learn it and are not as lazy to take the time to learn it to its fullest as it becomes less of being a chore if you love what you are doing, we don't mind when we run into a problem we don't understand as we will do the home work to find the reason of what we are missing, because we know it will only make us better at what we are doing.

You must ask yourself, are you a career electrician and want to keep learning your job to be the best that you can be, or is it just another job and you only want to just get by with only learning as much as you need to.

I have also notice that career electricians tend to have a greater self pride in their work and don't take short cuts even when no one is looking, we tend to put quality ahead of quantity, and it can pay off in the long run when we get called to do jobs because a knowledgeable customer knows it will be done right and will be safe and even will pay a higher price for this type of work, sure not all customers don't think like this, but I would rather do work for customers who do, as smarter customers can be longer lasting, and are more likely to give you more work over time because they wont be price shopping because they want the job to be done right, Do you take your car to a repair shop just because it is the cheapest or do you try to find out if they know what their doing and can make the repairs correctly, I hope the latter.

39 years in this field and there is so much I still have to learn, Now I'm now studying more about VFD's, AC to DC drives, and PLC's as while I have installed a few over the years, I never had to work on them on any regular basses, but now working in the steel industry, it's a big part of my job so I want to know them to the fullest, not just how to install one, but why each parameter is set to a specific setting so when problems comes up I can make the right choices to correctly make the right changes to keep things working and production going.

 

[tallgirl]

If you're frustrated by idiots, stay away from anything related to computers, because in the computer biz, some n00b straight out of college is often considered to have more knowledge and experience than someone with 20 or 30 years experience.

That said, no one can know everything. One of my cow-orkers was working on a piece of cryptographic code (it keeps unauthorized people from changing IEEE-1547 inverter trip limits, just to keep this on an electrical topic ...) and couldn't understand why a 16 digit number couldn't fit into a 64 bit floating point number. I suggested he check the size of the IEEE floating point mantissa on a 64 bit double precision floating point number to see just how many bits he had to work with. His forte is microcontrollers and doesn't much deal with 64 bit double precision floating point numbers in all of their gory details ...

 

[brian john]

Are there knuckle heads out there, sure, are their electricians that can smoke my limited knowledge, you bet. But in my expierence with 43 years in the trade, and I have worked in a fair number of states, on the whole most electricians seem to be average or better. It is just that the hacks seem to stand out.

So do your job, do you personal best and don't fret the things you can't fix, cause it'll just make you a bitter old man, and remember what an old electrician told me years ago. "Electricity is much more forgiving than we give it credit for or there would be a slew more fires."

 

[electricus]

The more I think I know, the more I realize I don't know. Everyday is a learning experience and a milestone. Some people don't care, they just do stuff and it works and that is good enough. Others try to do the best they can with what they think they know to do it right. I remember some of the stuff I did when I was a helper and apprentice, I thought I was doing it right. Now I know for the most part it was right, but there were slight problems that made it not 100% code complaint.

Like was said here before we are human and along with that is error. Even the best make mistakes. It is the people that don't care that need to be weeded out. The people that want to do it right, but maybe aren't a "brain" could use the smarter ones to help out. This site is great to get the answers one needs, sometimes it gets a little harsh around here.

Part of the problem we brought on ourselves for making some of the code so redundant and if you keep digging there are areas that can contradict and a code battle can start until someone is blue in the face. Just my two cents. Support those who want to do it right, weeded out the ones that don't.

 

[__dan]

Hard to believe no horror stories and no pictures of toys. You guys are holding out.. Either that or you don't want the board reading crowd showing up at dinnertime, at the house of the guy with the best toys.

This has been mentioned before and bears repeating. By definition, HALF of all people have an IQ of less than 100.

Very true unless it's time for a check. Then the average IQ drops to 80.