- Occupation
- Licensed Electrician
In the list of truisms concerning electrical this belongs in the top five.
lack of knowledge
- Thread starter electrofelon
- Start date
- Status
shamsdebout
Senior Member
- Location
- Macon,GA
As was mentioned, I am stating my observation. Was the intent of your post to call into question what I have seen?
- Location
- Simi Valley, CA
Correct response should have been "are you asking how many I can get in it or how many it is listed for?
I've told this story before, but I was inspecting a job one day and look at this 3/4" EMT and it is just stuffed full, I don't remember what was in it, but it was a bunch. Any way, I say to the guy "you can't do that" and he got this really stupid look on his face and I said "I'm sorry, obviously you can, because you did. What I should have said is, you're not allowed to do that." :roll:
I'll do an inspection on the main gear and have the plans and start asking sizes of feeders. If the guy starts calling them off without even looking I'm usually good with that. Means he probably knew what he was doing. they'll usually ask when I really start to check and I'll tell them "when you start saying, 'Hmmm' or 'I think' or the big one 'it's supposed to be....'
I take it back, you guys are not holding back. I was searching for something else and saw a steady stream of horror stories posted years earlier. And thankfully, did not see my posts. I like hiding from internet searches.
Speaking of incompetence, did I just repeat two stories I had posted here earlier ? Would not have happened ten years ago, would have posted a link.
Speaking of incompetence, did I just repeat two stories I had posted here earlier ? Would not have happened ten years ago, would have posted a link.
hillbilly1
Senior Member
- Location
- North Georgia mountains
- Occupation
- Owner/electrical contractor
I used to work with an electrician that when you would ask him "How many 3/0's can you get in a 2"?" His answer was always "How many do you need!" :lol:
busman
Senior Member
- Location
- Northern Virginia
- Occupation
- Master Electrician / Electrical Engineer
My current pet-peeve is that basically EVERY house I work in that was built in the last 10 years has exactly the same code violation and they ALL passed inspection. That is where the installer has two romex in a box and cuts one EGC 6" long and the other about 2.5" long, then throws a steel barrel crimp over the pair and mashes it with his dykes. So there are two code violations (conductors too short and crimp installed without the proper tool). What amazes me is that this isn't the exception, it's the rule. Is there some underground instruction sheet that shows this procedure and I'm not aware of it. It's like a religion. How does this pass inspection?
Mark
Mark
hardworkingstiff
Senior Member
- Location
- Wilmington, NC
Because that's the way everyone was trained to do it?
busman
Senior Member
- Location
- Northern Virginia
- Occupation
- Master Electrician / Electrical Engineer
I guess I'll just have to ask the inspectors. I just didn't really want to point out their mistake.
Mark
fmtjfw
Senior Member
- Location
- Fairmont, WV, USA
My perspective
My perspective
I entered the electrical trades via a shortcut. I took one academic year of trade school training and passed the journeyman's test. I liked the mixture of brain and hand work. Previous to that I was an computer nerd. I spent about 10 years as a software architect, which meant I lived and breathed specifications. I view the NEC as just another specification, abet one written mostly in English and therefore sometimes lacking the precision software specifications possess.
I first worked for a contractor who presented himself as a religious zealot and union master electrician. He could bend conduit like a wizard, fudge a payroll for his own benefit, ignore specified requirements, ignore the NEC, and try to ignore the laws of physics. He was so obnoxious that the general contractor barred him from the trades meetings and had him send the foreman. He had me wire up a temp circuit that had a 2-pole 50A GFCI breaker over about 1000 ft of Triplex, install GFCI receptacles and ground rods every 150 ft. He told me to tie the neutral to each ground rod. I told him it wouldn't work. He told me he was the boss. Every time it rained the 50A GFCI would trip. I spend a fair amount of time installing wiring according to the Boss and then ripping it out and installing it according to the specs after the inspection.
I then went to work for a school system. In my application letter I stated that I would do work that met the NEC (as the job description stated) and according to OSHA safety requirements (which was not in the job description or practice). Every wire I ran, every connection I made, every calculation, was done with the idea that I was holding the lives of school children in my hands. Unfortunately the only inspection of our work was when we altered or added a service entrance and then only up to and including the main CB panel.
I take a minimum of 5 days of continuing education in electrical work every year (often taking vacation time, since they seldom granted professional leave). I studied the code and eventually understood enough of it to have 100+ suggestions for changes to 2014 NEC accepted.
The inspectors I met with at the school work and evening work were all over the board, from a guy who knows more about the code and practical work than God, to a senile idiot. I have learned from some and tried to educate some others.
I worked with electricians who were scarry:
1) A grandfathered master electrician who believed that you took the hot wire size, dropped it to the next smaller size for the neutral, and the next smaller size for the grounding. (#10, #12, #14). He also believed that conduit fill was defined by what two men, a small boy, and a donkey could pull through it.
2) A guy whose last job was wiring in Afghanistan as a civilian contractor and who carried on the level of skill and attention to code that he developed there. Orange for neutral, sure why not. Ream conduit, surely you jest. MC cable around a wall corner, get a hammer and make it a sharp 90. Take out a circuit, turn off the circuit breaker, cut the wires in the octagonal box, walk away.
I also worked with electricians who were eager to learn and learned from errors.
My perspective
I entered the electrical trades via a shortcut. I took one academic year of trade school training and passed the journeyman's test. I liked the mixture of brain and hand work. Previous to that I was an computer nerd. I spent about 10 years as a software architect, which meant I lived and breathed specifications. I view the NEC as just another specification, abet one written mostly in English and therefore sometimes lacking the precision software specifications possess.
I first worked for a contractor who presented himself as a religious zealot and union master electrician. He could bend conduit like a wizard, fudge a payroll for his own benefit, ignore specified requirements, ignore the NEC, and try to ignore the laws of physics. He was so obnoxious that the general contractor barred him from the trades meetings and had him send the foreman. He had me wire up a temp circuit that had a 2-pole 50A GFCI breaker over about 1000 ft of Triplex, install GFCI receptacles and ground rods every 150 ft. He told me to tie the neutral to each ground rod. I told him it wouldn't work. He told me he was the boss. Every time it rained the 50A GFCI would trip. I spend a fair amount of time installing wiring according to the Boss and then ripping it out and installing it according to the specs after the inspection.
I then went to work for a school system. In my application letter I stated that I would do work that met the NEC (as the job description stated) and according to OSHA safety requirements (which was not in the job description or practice). Every wire I ran, every connection I made, every calculation, was done with the idea that I was holding the lives of school children in my hands. Unfortunately the only inspection of our work was when we altered or added a service entrance and then only up to and including the main CB panel.
I take a minimum of 5 days of continuing education in electrical work every year (often taking vacation time, since they seldom granted professional leave). I studied the code and eventually understood enough of it to have 100+ suggestions for changes to 2014 NEC accepted.
The inspectors I met with at the school work and evening work were all over the board, from a guy who knows more about the code and practical work than God, to a senile idiot. I have learned from some and tried to educate some others.
I worked with electricians who were scarry:
1) A grandfathered master electrician who believed that you took the hot wire size, dropped it to the next smaller size for the neutral, and the next smaller size for the grounding. (#10, #12, #14). He also believed that conduit fill was defined by what two men, a small boy, and a donkey could pull through it.
2) A guy whose last job was wiring in Afghanistan as a civilian contractor and who carried on the level of skill and attention to code that he developed there. Orange for neutral, sure why not. Ream conduit, surely you jest. MC cable around a wall corner, get a hammer and make it a sharp 90. Take out a circuit, turn off the circuit breaker, cut the wires in the octagonal box, walk away.
I also worked with electricians who were eager to learn and learned from errors.
- Location
- Simi Valley, CA
The code says that "where the opening to an outlet, junction or switch point is less than 8" in any dimension, each conductor shall be long enough to extend at least 3" outside the opening."
tallgirl
Senior Member
- Location
- Glendale, WI
- Occupation
- Controls Systems firmware engineer
LOL! Well understood -- I spent 12 years as an architect, much of that working on specifications written by Three Letter Agencies. The NEC has nothing on anything produced by the DoD or NSA.
tallgirl
Senior Member
- Location
- Glendale, WI
- Occupation
- Controls Systems firmware engineer
Before working in Katrina-Land I'd never pulled anything through a piece of pipe that didn't involve trying to unclog a drain or toilet.
What can't be done with pipe could fill an entire book. Someone should write it because I'd have bought it after wasting entirely too much time on things I "could" do, but "shouldn't".
stevebea
Senior Member
- Location
- Southeastern PA
LOL... used to work with a guy like that but his response was always " Are you using soap? "
lack of knowledge
My father trained me from the time I was about 14 to be an electrician. 40 years later I still live by something he always said. Any electrician that claims to know it all is a dangerous electrician.I am to this day not afraid to ask advise from inspectors or fellow electricians, even younger guys may be able to offer valuable input. This is a pretty vast industry with changes and improvements coming along every day. If you are open to learn, you can learn something every day. At least most days anyway. That's the way I see it.
My father trained me from the time I was about 14 to be an electrician. 40 years later I still live by something he always said. Any electrician that claims to know it all is a dangerous electrician.I am to this day not afraid to ask advise from inspectors or fellow electricians, even younger guys may be able to offer valuable input. This is a pretty vast industry with changes and improvements coming along every day. If you are open to learn, you can learn something every day. At least most days anyway. That's the way I see it.
My dad was a mechanic and he used to pull the spark plugs out of them old lawnmowers, put a screwdrive in the spark plug boot, and hold it up against the block and pull the rope to see what kind of spark it had.
One day when I was about 8 years old I was at the shop with him and his screwdriver wasnt handy, so he put my pinky finger in the spark plug boot and pulled the rope. He could tell how good the fire was by how high I jumped.
I learned a lot about electricity from him very quickly that day.
JAP>
One day when I was about 8 years old I was at the shop with him and his screwdriver wasnt handy, so he put my pinky finger in the spark plug boot and pulled the rope. He could tell how good the fire was by how high I jumped.
I learned a lot about electricity from him very quickly that day.
JAP>
ggunn
PE (Electrical), NABCEP certified
- Location
- Austin, TX, USA
- Occupation
- Consulting Electrical Engineer - Photovoltaic Systems
I learned a similar lesson. Once with my car engine running and the hood up, I stood leaning on the fender with my crotchal area in contact with the car body, and I leaned in and pulled off a plug wire. It was like getting hit simultaneously with two hammers, one in the hand and one in the... you know. It's a mistake you do not make twice.
K8MHZ
Senior Member
- Occupation
- Electrician
Did you get to make use of the hood pad?
I did pretty much the same thing years ago. I am glad the hood pad was there to protect my head when it hit the underside of the hood.
I bought a pair of 'chicken pliers' and used them ever since. Like these:
I was adjusting the throttle return spring on an old chevy one day and unknowingly stuck the long tail end into the positive battery post on the back of the alternator. The spring got red hot and started to uncoil in my hand.
I learned a lot about reistors that day and still have the burn marks to remind me.
I learned a lot about reistors that day and still have the burn marks to remind me.
- Location
- Placerville, CA, USA
- Occupation
- Retired PV System Designer
I was working on some outdoor lab equipment one day and had to get through a tight space between two equipment carts, so I put one hand on each and swung through between them. A faulty AC solenoid valve had energized the metal on one of the carts and the other one was grounded. With my weight on my arms, it seemed like forever before I finished swinging and could let go.
We were at a church group hay ride where it was raining,and we all held hands and said a short prayer that it would quit raining.
I was on the end and as i bowed my head I looked over and saw an electric fence wire within reaching distance.
I reached out and grabbed ahold of the electric fence,,,,,,,,,, the chain reaction that took place looking down that line of wet people was quite miraculous.Although it never did quit raining.
Crazy thing is, after they found out what had happened they all wanted to do it again.
We werent the coldest beers in the fridge thats for sure.
I was on the end and as i bowed my head I looked over and saw an electric fence wire within reaching distance.
I reached out and grabbed ahold of the electric fence,,,,,,,,,, the chain reaction that took place looking down that line of wet people was quite miraculous.Although it never did quit raining.
Crazy thing is, after they found out what had happened they all wanted to do it again.
We werent the coldest beers in the fridge thats for sure.
- Status