Splicing GEC

[busman]

I made it 30 years into the electrical business without ever REALLY needing to splice a GEC, but there were plenty of times it would have been convenient. I had one of those instances last week and started looking at what tooling/connectors would be required to do this to code. It seems the cheapest you could get on the tooling was ~$1,700 for a hydraulic crimp tool that takes U-dies, then another $100 for the die (or $1,600 for a set to cover most conductor sizes). That's a lot of money, but not out of the affordable. I then went to look at connectors and the cheapest I could find was something like the T&B CTP22 at $40 per connector.

Am I missing something? Is there something SO special about he UL-467 listing that makes a connector cost $40 and make it so superior to a standard connector; let's say a color-keyed barrel splice? Or am I missing some cheaper tool and connector?

I'm sure those of you with more commercial experience know the answer. This just doesn't come up a lot in residential.

As always, thanks for any info.

Mark

 

[Dennis Alwon]

I have never had to do it either but I believe you can buy a one time cadweld shot.

 

[augie47]

also some of your larger electrical supply chains rent crimpers.
Locally the few times it has occurred, the E/C talked POCO into using their crimp tool when they installed the service.

 

[busman]

So, that covers the cost of the crimp tool. What about the insane cost of the connector. Looking at the CTP22, it sure doesn't look like it has magical properties relative to a color-keyed splice, other than the listing. My gut feeling is that a barrel splice meant for a single size conductor and with multiple crimps provides a better splice and a C-tap meant for a whole range of wire sizes.

Oh, and thanks for the replies.

Mark

 

[electrofelon]

what about this? http://www.idealindustries.com/prod...iv=3&l1=crimp_tools&l2=hand_operated_indentor

My former partner had one and we used it mostly to crimp on lugs for class 320 meter sockets. He always like to do it that way rather than buy set screw lugs for some reason. I was always unclear as to if that made an approved assembly, as the lugs always indicated which die to use. Could you splice a GEC with this?

 

[ptonsparky]

We use a Burndy tool and a yc4c6 or similar for small GECs. Larger we use a cadweld one shot or buy the splice and supplier lets us use their tool.

Bought the Burndy tool used for $250 30 yrs ago. Try ebay maybe?

 

[iwire]

Drive a ground rod where you need to make the splice. Land the GEC on the rod and add a second clamp for the bonding jumper continuing to rest of the electrodes.

 

[masterinbama]

I bought an Ilsco MT-25 new for around $200. It will crimp up to 250MCM.

 

[busman]

Drive a ground rod where you need to make the splice. Land the GEC on the rod and add a second clamp for the bonding jumper continuing to rest of the electrodes.

Actually, I'm the one who posted that idea last year. I still think it's a sham, but it does meet code. In this case however, it's hard to drive a ground rod in the middle of a basement ceiling. The previous installer only took the #4 to the closest water pipe, not all the way to where it enters the house.

Just to add to the insanity, I previously posted that the tool was $1,600 and the connector was $40; guess how much the U-die is? A standard U-die is just a bit over $100. The one for the ground crimp is $350. I can understand that the tool is hydraulic and just plain expensive. I can accept that the additional listing and probably fewer sales drives the cost of the connector. But, really, what on earth would make the die so expensive??

As always, thanks for the replies.

Mark

 

[busman]

We use a Burndy tool and a yc4c6 or similar for small GECs. Larger we use a cadweld one shot or buy the splice and supplier lets us use their tool.

Bought the Burndy tool used for $250 30 yrs ago. Try ebay maybe?

I don't think the yc4c6 is UL-467 rated, so I don't think it meets the code. I do have a MD6-8 tool with a die that would install that connector though.

Mark

 

[busman]

what about this? http://www.idealindustries.com/prod...iv=3&l1=crimp_tools&l2=hand_operated_indentor

My former partner had one and we used it mostly to crimp on lugs for class 320 meter sockets. He always like to do it that way rather than buy set screw lugs for some reason. I was always unclear as to if that made an approved assembly, as the lugs always indicated which die to use. Could you splice a GEC with this?

I have a TBM-5S that is good for up to 250 MCM color-keyed splices and lugs, but again not useful with anything that is UL-467 compliant. BTW, just a tip, when I first got this tool, I tried squeezing it the way I do my MD6-8 tool (bring both handles together toward the center of the chest) and damn near killed myself with the effort (and I'm no small guy). Recommend placing one handle in the armpit and pulling inward with the same arm. This tool takes a lot of force to close. This second method also leaves one hand to align the tool and hold the connector. I'm sure you guys all knew this already, but we didn't use any crimps when I was an apprentice; all set screws. You can start laughing any time.

Oh and if you want to keep laughing, the MD6-8 has two built in dies the O which is small and the D which is large. I was doing a heavy up and usually use H-taps to do the temporary connections on the service cable. I hadn't got much coffee in me and tried to put the large H-tap on using the small die. I thought I was going to get brain-bubbles, I was squeezing the handles so hard. I finally got the thing almost all the way crimped when I realized I was using the wrong die. I can't believe that I almost got it squeezed down to the size of the smaller die and that I didn't damage the tool in the process. You can bet that when I went back and did the rest of the crimps with the correct die, it seemed effortless by comparison. Just gotta laugh at myself sometimes.

Mark

Mark

 

[ptonsparky]

I don't think the yc4c6 is UL-467 rated, so I don't think it meets the code. I do have a MD6-8 tool with a die that would install that connector though.

Mark

Well dang, that makes 30 yrs of doing something wrong and no one has told me.

Unlike the 40+ years where I hear frequently that I have not done something correctly.

 

[busman]

Well dang, that makes 30 yrs of doing something wrong and no one has told me.

Unlike the 40+ years where I hear frequently that I have not done something correctly.

I don't know if you are right or wrong. I don't have the UL-467 standard. It does reference the UL-486A&B standards, but I don't know how.

It just seems like that code rule is more of an excuse to sell overpriced tools and connectors.

Mark

 

[al hildenbrand]

I have a TBM-5S that is good for up to 250 MCM color-keyed splices and lugs, but again not useful with anything that is UL-467 compliant.

Help me understand this.

UL let's us see the UL 467 "Grounding and Bonding Equipment" Scope at their infonet. It's short and you can read it clicking here.

Now, the Thomas and Betts color keyed copper " C Taps " have a T&B catalog number of 547xx where xx ranges from 05 on up by increments of 5 and sometimes 10. The T&B C Taps have a UL Certifications (White Book) category of KDER, which is simply titled "Grounding and Bonding Equipment".

2011 NEC 250.64 (C)(1)

Splicing of the wire-type grounding electrode conductor shall be permitted only by irreversible compression type connectors listed as grounding and bonding equipment or by the exothermic welding process.

Now, to be clear, I came to the UL Category "KDER" by doing a manufacturer look up of T&B which lead me to a llloooooonnnnngggg list of product categories, including "Grounding and Bonding Equipment" with a UL File Number of KDER.E3060 which can be looked at by clicking here . About half way down the page you will find a sub grouping called "Ground grid connectors" which includes T&B catalog numbers 54705, 54710, 54720, 54725, 54730, 54735, 54740, 54745 and 54750. And just above this is the sub grouping "Ground connectors" that includes T&B catalog numbers 54755, 54760, 54765, 54770, 54775 and 54780.

250.64(C)(1) doesn't mention UL 467. What am I missing? Seems like the T&B C Taps work just fine for splicing a GEC.

 

[al hildenbrand]

I had one of those instances last week and started looking at what tooling/connectors would be required to do this to code.

The real underlying issue, in my humble opinion, is that most manufacturer's catalogs don't really do a lot with sharing technical UL Certifications (White Book) information, let alone the UL File numbers for each and every one of their specific make and model of products. As a result, internet search engine returns for products with a "grounding and bonding equipment" tag or "UL 467" tag have some truly erroneous absenses.

 

[kwired]

We use a Burndy tool and a yc4c6 or similar for small GECs. Larger we use a cadweld one shot or buy the splice and supplier lets us use their tool.

Bought the Burndy tool used for $250 30 yrs ago. Try ebay maybe?

I've use those before myself, pretty sure they are not listed for grounding though. I've checked into it before and there is a whole other product line that is listed for grounding - guess what non of the supply houses even stock them - so that tells you how many they have sold. Same line needs special crimping equipment to be installed per listing from what I recall.

Drive a ground rod where you need to make the splice. Land the GEC on the rod and add a second clamp for the bonding jumper continuing to rest of the electrodes.

I still like the C tap method better but this method actually is code compliant:slaphead:

I bought an Ilsco MT-25 new for around $200. It will crimp up to 250MCM.

Does it work on connectors that meet listing requirements for the application in this thread?

Well dang, that makes 30 yrs of doing something wrong and no one has told me.

Unlike the 40+ years where I hear frequently that I have not done something correctly.

I'm willing to bet your improper connections are still intact and will still work even though not listed. This requirement seems to be a way to drive price of properly listed items up more so than actually changing the performance standards by any significance We need to ensure a couple micro ohms don't develop in a connection to an electrode that (if a ground rod) doesn't have to be any better than 25 ohms resistance??

 

[busman]

Help me understand this.

UL let's us see the UL 467 "Grounding and Bonding Equipment" Scope at their infonet. It's short and you can read it clicking here.

Now, the Thomas and Betts color keyed copper " C Taps " have a T&B catalog number of 547xx where xx ranges from 05 on up by increments of 5 and sometimes 10. The T&B C Taps have a UL Certifications (White Book) category of KDER, which is simply titled "Grounding and Bonding Equipment".

Now, to be clear, I came to the UL Category "KDER" by doing a manufacturer look up of T&B which lead me to a llloooooonnnnngggg list of product categories, including "Grounding and Bonding Equipment" with a UL File Number of KDER.E3060 which can be looked at by clicking here . About half way down the page you will find a sub grouping called "Ground grid connectors" which includes T&B catalog numbers 54705, 54710, 54720, 54725, 54730, 54735, 54740, 54745 and 54750. And just above this is the sub grouping "Ground connectors" that includes T&B catalog numbers 54755, 54760, 54765, 54770, 54775 and 54780.

250.64(C)(1) doesn't mention UL 467. What am I missing? Seems like the T&B C Taps work just fine for splicing a GEC.

Al,

Thank you very much for the extensive information. That's just what I was looking for. If I understand correctly, there are a bunch of things that are listed as "Grounding and Bonding" equipment, and UL-467 is probably just a higher standard for some who may want something with more rigorous testing. I never would have thought to dig through UL the way you did. Bravo Zulu.

Mark

 

[busman]

Well dang, that makes 30 yrs of doing something wrong and no one has told me.

Unlike the 40+ years where I hear frequently that I have not done something correctly.

I did do the same UL search that Al did looking for the Burndy YC4C6 and didn't find a listing for that, so it may not qualify, OR I may have missed it.

Mark

 

[al hildenbrand]

I never would have thought to dig through UL the way you did. Bravo Zulu.

You're very welcome.

I'm paying it forward for the PV Electrician who showed me in a thread here on the Forum about a year and a half ago. I couldn't readily locate the thread, but I dove in to document it, 'cause, you see, I'd gone ahead and expanded my "grounding and bonding equipment" irreversible compression connector and tool collection with the very tool you'd thought wasn't qualified for a 250.64(C)(1) splice.

I hadn't kept a copy of the documentation, for the field, with the tool.

Two years ago I had gotten to the same conundrum you were at with the OP on this thread. I, too, was having exactly the same results searching for connectors and the tool. . . way to big and costly for my more "regular everyday" wiring projects.

This is kind of an interesting problem. A lot of people will look at a "UL 467" or "grounding and bonding equipment" search engine returns and take the silence about the T & B C Tap line as proof. Kind of like the certainty, in many, that a lowly #10-32 screw used to connect an EGC to a steel 4 x 4 box must be UL listed and it must be green.

You never know when the copy of this documentation will be needed. I've taken this and added it to the field NEC on the dash and in the TBM-5S kit and the with the smaller hand tool.

Thanks for reminding me. :thumbsup:

 

[busman]

You're very welcome.

I'm paying it forward for the PV Electrician who showed me in a thread here on the Forum about a year and a half ago. I couldn't readily locate the thread, but I dove in to document it, 'cause, you see, I'd gone ahead and expanded my "grounding and bonding equipment" irreversible compression connector and tool collection with the very tool you'd thought wasn't qualified for a 250.64(C)(1) splice.

I hadn't kept a copy of the documentation, for the field, with the tool.

Two years ago I had gotten to the same conundrum you were at with the OP on this thread. I, too, was having exactly the same results searching for connectors and the tool. . . way to big and costly for my more "regular everyday" wiring projects.

This is kind of an interesting problem. A lot of people will look at a "UL 467" or "grounding and bonding equipment" search engine returns and take the silence about the T & B C Tap line as proof. Kind of like the certainty, in many, that a lowly #10-32 screw used to connect an EGC to a steel 4 x 4 box must be UL listed and it must be green.

You never know when the copy of this documentation will be needed. I've taken this and added it to the field NEC on the dash and in the TBM-5S kit and the with the smaller hand tool.

Thanks for reminding me. :thumbsup:

I keep a binder in my truck for miscellaneous stuff that's not in the NEC, such as the PoCo Blue Book, Tool Instructions, etc. That T&B file is going in there for sure.

Thanks again,

Mark