Generator Wiring from ATS to Generator in need of help!

[electricacharlie]

Ok here is my dilemma. According to the AHJ you are not allowed to install 300V PVC coated 18/6 inside a home unprotected (not in conduit) ran like Romex and use it for the N1,N2 and T1 connections on an emergency standby Generac unit. Those connections have 120V with basically no load. The DLMS also require 120V connections and I would like to be able to run this instead of Romex or UF, an AHJ is not allowing me but in my opinion i think its fine. The wire is sunlight resistant and designed to be ran inside a structure. MFG claim and UL listed. I understand you are not allowed to run bell wire or thermo wire as 120V wires and in reality you should run pipe and run 600V THHN/THWN with all the other feeds but I am just looking for some clarification on this and as I have looked to the fantastic people of MHF for other answers without posting.... Now I must post due to the lack of similar posts. Please help!

 

[George Stolz]

Is it Class 1, 2, or 3 source?

 

[electricacharlie]

Is it Class 1, 2, or 3 source?

See thats the issue... Due to the classifacation of the installation ( class 1 art. 300 chapt 3) the AHJ says it needs to be in conduit... Thats where I think he is wrong.

 

[RLyons]

So the generac supplied whip isn't long enough I assume. In that case I have always run romex for these connections, I'm not understanding why you are against doing so? Imagine someone cutting into that wire assuming it was a doorbell or thermostat...you wouldn't mistakenly do that to romex.

 

[electricacharlie]

Is it Class 1, 2, or 3 source?

Sorry forgot, the AHJ says the wire I want to install would be considered Class 3 ..... Any thoughts?

 

[electricacharlie]

So the generac supplied whip isn't long enough I assume. In that case I have always run romex for these connections, I'm not understanding why you are against doing so? Imagine someone cutting into that wire assuming it was a doorbell or thermostat...you wouldn't mistakenly do that to romex.

Your assumption would be correct.. The romex , besides you cannot penetrate outside with it and you would need to install a J-box of some time then come out with approved wiring or run UF dont fit well in the supplied connections and looks ridiculous. I know and understand the comment about the thermo thats what the AHJ says but whats the code reference?

 

[RLyons]

Ahh yes. I mount a 6x6 plastic junction box splice romex to THHN and run it through carflex to the gen. How does the code reflect the fact that low and high voltage are run in the same factory whip?

 

[electricacharlie]

Ahh yes. I mount a 6x6 plastic junction box splice romex to THHN and run it through carflex to the gen. How does the code reflect the fact that low and high voltage are run in the same factory whip?

Absolutely! That is what is I have done also. The code cant and dont effect that issue.. All the wires in the whip are functionally needed for the operation of the generator and are of the same or higher rating I.E 600V. It is also UL listed for that type of application. And just to clarify another issue, article 250.30 applies to the generator also. No ground rod needed. My issue is with the application and installation of the 18/6 wire i would like to install. Its PVC rated and is Listed to be installed without conduit... I cant seem to find the code reference to the fact that I cant run it.... Also, if you run all the wires in the j-box you and use an 1 1/4" connector you will need an 8x8 box.. :thumbsup:

 

[iwire]

See thats the issue... Due to the classifacation of the installation ( class 1 art. 300 chapt 3) the AHJ says it needs to be in conduit... Thats where I think he is wrong.

If it is class 1 and you seem to be saying it is, why do you think you could use a class 3 cable?

725.46 Class 1 Circuit Wiring Methods. Class 1 circuits shall be installed in accordance with Part I of Article 300 and with the wiring methods from the appropriate articles in Chapter 3.

Exception No. 1: The provisions of 725.48 through 725.51 shall be permitted to apply in installations of Class 1 circuits.

Exception No. 2: Methods permitted or required by other articles of this Code shall apply to installations of Class 1 circuits.

The cable you chose, run exposed is not a chapter 3 wiring method.

 

[shortcircuit2]

N1 & N2 on the Generac are for 240volt utility sensing and T1 is a 120volt ungrounded conductor load supply for the transfer switch and terminals 23, 194 and 0 are DC control wires. Generac told me this is class 1 controll wiring.

Here are some listing specs for thermostat wire...

Item: Thermostat Cable
Type: CL2
Voltage: 150
Spool/Coil Length (Ft.):250
Number of Conductors: 6
Gauge/Conductor: 18
Nominal Outside Dia. (In.): 0.186
Package Type: Spool
Jacket Color: White
Cable Type: Nonplenum
Max. Temp. (C)60
Standards: Article 725, ETL

Any chapter 3 wiring method used must have an equipment grounding conductor also. So you need to run 7-wires. I have used a pair of 14-3 romex cables inside and change to thwn outside.

 

[electricacharlie]

If it is class 1 and you seem to be saying it is, why do you think you could use a class 3 cable?




The cable you chose, run exposed is not a chapter 3 wiring method.

Thats the issue. It is rated as class 1 not class 3 because of the insulation. Its not bell wire and it will have a grounded conductor so does it need to be in conduit?

 

[electricacharlie]

N1 & N2 on the Generac are for 240volt utility sensing and T1 is a 120volt ungrounded conductor load supply for the transfer switch and terminals 23, 194 and 0 are DC control wires. Generac told me this is class 1 controll wiring.

Here are some listing specs for thermostat wire...

Item: Thermostat Cable
Type: CL2
Voltage: 150
Spool/Coil Length (Ft.):250
Number of Conductors: 6
Gauge/Conductor: 18
Nominal Outside Dia. (In.): 0.186
Package Type: Spool
Jacket Color: White
Cable Type: Nonplenum
Max. Temp. (C)60
Standards: Article 725, ETL

Any chapter 3 wiring method used must have an equipment grounding conductor also. So you need to run 7-wires. I have used a pair of 14-3 romex cables inside and change to thwn outside.

Yes bell wire is not an appropriate wire to use except for the DC 23, 194, and 0 . You can use bell wire for those.. N1, N2, and T1 are all 120V and definitely needs a grounded conductor I agree.. Below are the specs for the wire I want to use.. There would be enough conductors to have a grounded conductor to satisfy that portion of the NEC. Any thoughts?

[h=5]Application:[/h] General purpose cable for use in power, control and lighting circuits in a broad range of commerical and industrial applications. Approved for installation indoors or outdoors, aerially, in conduits, ducts, cable trays or direct burial in circuits not exceeding 600 volts. May be used in NEC Class I and II, Division 2 hazardous locations. UL approved for use in continuous operation at 75?C in wet locations, 90?C in dry locations, 130?C for emergency overload conditions, and 250?C for short circuit conditions.
[h=5]Conductor:[/h] Soft bare annealed copper per ASTM B-3, Class B stranding per ASTM B-8.
[h=5]Insulation:[/h] Flame-retardent PVC per UL Standard 83 stranding per ASTM B-8.
[h=5]Insulation Jacket:[/h] Clear nylon per UL Standard 83 for Type THHN or THWN wire.
[h=5]Jacket:[/h] Sunlight-resistant PVC per UL Standard 1277.
[h=5]Flame Tests:[/h]

• IEEE 383 70,000 BTU/hr flame test

[h=5]Color Code:[/h] ICEA Method 1, Table E-2
[h=5]Additional Standards:[/h]

• UL Type TC per Article 336 of the NEC
• Approved for Class 1 remote-control and signaling circuits per Article 725 of the NEC