Generator hook ups

[iloveskydiving]

Have a house without power and want to hook generator up, going to back feed panel from dryer breaker. After turning main breaker off and hooking generator up should I run a ground wire from my generator frame to the house ground rod ?

 

[peter d]

Based on your description alone, it sounds like you have no clue what you're doing.

 

[infinity]

Is your setup temporary for testing purposes? In what you're proposing the generator will be connected to the existing structure's GES.

 

[iloveskydiving]

generator power

generator power

No I'm not sure that's why I'm asking, wiring the 3 wire 220 volt coming from the generator to the house service panel back feeding into a breaker for temp power when there is no utility power. Didn't know if when utility power comes back on and generator is running and main breaker off in house panel if I would cause any problems ?

 

[infinity]

Why is the house without power?

 

[iloveskydiving]

2 snow storms over 2 feet of snow and some freezing rain, knocked a lot of houses out of power.

 

[infinity]

You should not be connecting a generator in the way you've mentioned in the OP.

 

[petersonra]

Have a house without power and want to hook generator up, going to back feed panel from dryer breaker.

This is not only a bad idea, it is inherently unsafe, violates the code, and results in a fatality every few years.

Put in a transfer switch.

Where the ground wire goes is a very minor issue compared to not having a safe hookup.

 

[iceworm]

Have a house without power and want to hook generator up, going to back feed panel from dryer breaker. After turning main breaker off and hooking generator up should I run a ground wire from my generator frame to the house ground rod ?

And it is cold and the house is freezing up - or already has. And, even if you had time, there isn't a switch available in the county. Just guesses.

So:
Are you connecting to the dryer breaker in the panel? Or a plug to the dryer receptacle? I'm asking because you really should put in a 4 wire feed and pull the N-G Bond from the generator. One of the 4 wires will be from the generator frame to the house EGC. If the dryer receptacle is not 4W, don't use it.

I'm guessing the generator is <10KW, 1 ph, one or two cbs, cord and plug. If it is, it should have a 4W receptacle. And it will have an N-G bond. Some of the esteemed here don't think it matters if the N-G bond is removed or not. However, as an avid DIY and engineer (industrial) I think it does.

Recommend:
4W plug and cord from the generator to the panel.

Wire directly to the panel, hots to the dryer CB, G to G, N to N.

Pull the N-G bond. If you can't find the gen book to locate the bond, don't worry about it. Just don't have any faults while you are standing on the ground and holding on to the gen frame.

Lock open the house main. Its unlikely a small gen can back feed the utility - but it is possible, It's unlikely a lineman will work the utility side with out checking - but it is possible. Put a lock on it.

As said, you need some help - this is not a bad, you are just out of your element. Take heart. If you were a DIY or worse yet - an engineer, this would have been shut down at the first post. But you are not - so you're okay.

But get some help - do it safe.

And, NO, a ground rod at the gen won't change a thing.

ice

 

[iceworm]

... Lock open the house main. Its unlikely a small gen can back feed the utility - but it is possible, It's unlikely a lineman will work the utility side with out checking - but it is possible. Put a lock on it.

Really -- Put a lock the main, or unwire it. Yes, I understand locks are hard to find, and 4/0 Al is tough to work with. Bummer - do it anyway.

ice

 

[kwired]

And it is cold and the house is freezing up - or already has. And, even if you had time, there isn't a switch available in the county. Just guesses.

Been down that road a few times. If you don't get power there somehow, someone else will and no promises how safe it will be.

Really -- Put a lock the main, or unwire it. Yes, I understand locks are hard to find, and 4/0 Al is tough to work with. Bummer - do it anyway.

ice

Agree. Doesn't even need to be a lock listed for the purpose, just make sure you need to go through extra steps before you can turn it on so it doesn't accidentally get turned on. When utility power is restored one may be really anxious to get it back up and forget what needs done before turning it on. If it is not so simple to do so it will remind people that certain steps need to be taken.

 

[iloveskydiving]

Thanks for your comments and kindness, utility power finally came back on and house is back online.

 

[renosteinke]

And we really think we're improving things when we say "no cord & plug on the furnace?"

Scenario: Power fails, guy unplugs furnace, runs cord through window to portable genny, he has heat - and zero hazard to any PoCo personnel.

Instead, we get desperate naifs fiddling around inside the panel. Lovely.

 

[templdl]

And we really think we're improving things when we say "no cord & plug on the furnace?"

Scenario: Power fails, guy unplugs furnace, runs cord through window to portable genny, he has heat - and zero hazard to any PoCo personnel.

Instead, we get desperate naifs fiddling around inside the panel. Lovely.

Bingo, ditto, etc. Keeping it simple and safe. Plug and cord connect the furnace. Unplug from the utility source and plug into genset. That's what I would do.

 

[arits74]

we had an ice storm around here a few years ago.my neighbor called me to look at his temporary generator hook up because the generator would die when he turned the breaker on the pole on to feed into his mobile home.who ever hooked up his disconnect under the meter had it hooked up backwards,and the generator was actually trying to backfeed into the utility lines.but as soon as he would turn on the breaker to try and feed power into the trailer it would die nearly instantly.so the question is will a small generator(7000 watt in this case)actually cause a problem backfeeding into the utility lines,because this one did not because it died instantly when it tried to backfeed.

 

[GoldDigger]

we had an ice storm around here a few years ago.my neighbor called me to look at his temporary generator hook up because the generator would die when he turned the breaker on the pole on to feed into his mobile home.who ever hooked up his disconnect under the meter had it hooked up backwards,and the generator was actually trying to backfeed into the utility lines.but as soon as he would turn on the breaker to try and feed power into the trailer it would die nearly instantly.so the question is will a small generator(7000 watt in this case)actually cause a problem backfeeding into the utility lines,because this one did not because it died instantly when it tried to backfeed.

It will not be guaranteed to cause a problem if there are other loads or protective ground jumpers on the same POCO transformer, even if the primary of that transformer has been disconnected. But under some circumstances which can occur in an individual service failure or the process of clearing a wider fault, there may be no other loads present to force the generator to stop, leading to unsafe conditions for workers who expect lines to be de-energized and stay that way.
Bottom line is do not risk it.

 

[texie]

It will not be guaranteed to cause a problem if there are other loads or protective ground jumpers on the same POCO transformer, even if the primary of that transformer has been disconnected. But under some circumstances which can occur in an individual service failure or the process of clearing a wider fault, there may be no other loads present to force the generator to stop, leading to unsafe conditions for workers who expect lines to be de-energized and stay that way.
Bottom line is do not risk it.

I agree. In most cases a small portable generator will simply stall instantly if connected to another live/or dead source on the POCO side. Even if it is a dead POCO souce, the required current to magnetise even a small POCO xformer from the load side will likely stall a small portable generator. Of course, as you mentioned, there are all kinds of other sceniarios, such as another customer on the same secondary, with out enough load to stall the generator, etc. So yes, it is possible to create a real serious hazard.
That said and at the risk of offending others, there is nothing wrong with using a back fed device such as dryer outlet with the proper precautions by a licesensed, competent electrician. This would include proper isolation from the POCO via locking out the main breaker or removing the meter, etc.
I can tell you that as a veteran of many weather outages, both due to hurricane and snow, etc I have done countless hookups of portable generators ranging from 5KW to 1MW+ with out a transfer switch on an emergency basis. It is worth noting that NEC Art. 701 permits this with supervision.

 

[GoldDigger]

It is worth noting that NEC Art. 701 permits this with supervision.

Do you stay there the whole time the generator is connected, or do you just supervise the initial connection?
Do you do something to positively retain the cord in the dryer or range receptacle, or just rely on the contact friction?
Or do you hard wire to the outlet instead of using the receptacle?

 

[texie]

Do you stay there the whole time the generator is connected, or do you just supervise the initial connection?
Do you do something to positively retain the cord in the dryer or range receptacle, or just rely on the contact friction?
Or do you hard wire to the outlet instead of using the receptacle?

To me, it is a matter of good professional judgement depending on the circumstances. My point was that emergency power connections can be made safely without the use of fully installed transfer equipment. This is done routinely in many situations and is permitted under the NEC 701 rules.

 

[renosteinke]

Looks like a good day to go fishing - now that texie has opened a can of worms!

Just what we need, a 'competent' person arguing in favor of suicide cords. Heck, it works, don't it? Just be sure to follow all the procedures.

Let's make sure to arrange our lives so 'emergency' becomes 'routine.' Words are just words, they don't mean anything.

Folks, an 'emergency' is when the ship is sinking and you need to get the pump working. It's not an emergency because you're worried the ice cream in the freezer will melt, or the beer will get warm.

Best of all, I love that spiel about a "competent' person. Heck, every kindergarten wash-out with hair on his chin thinks he's "qualified."

Texie, I love ya pal ... but your comments are like flowers, lining the path to Hell.