GEC at Sub Panel

[jap]

"simultaneously" is talking about the disconnecting of the conductors from thier source,not that you have to disconnect all of the equipment at the same time.

 

[jap]

Looks like he will need a main in his panel anyway, so he can tap off one of the two 200 amp disconnects.

Why?

 

[kwired]

Looks like he will need a main in his panel anyway, so he can tap off one of the two 200 amp disconnects.

Why?

Only if the panel and feeder are less than 200 amps, tap rules still need to be met for any interior portion of the tap, outdoor tap conductors can be unlimited in length.

 

[jap]

That's right but I was hoping he would let us know why he felt it needed a main.

 

[Little Bill]

Only if the panel and feeder are less than 200 amps, tap rules still need to be met for any interior portion of the tap, outdoor tap conductors can be unlimited in length.

Thought about tapping one of the disconnects but I've never tapped off a fused disconnect.
Not sure how I would go about it since I suppose it would be hard to find a double lug for the fused disconnect.

 

[jap]

What about installing a Power Distribution Block inside of the Disconnect?

 

[jap]

Or just below it in a 3r Enclosure.

 

[mwm1752]

Your new sub-panel shall be grounded with the EGC runas part of the feeder. FYI building codes would require a landing & handrail & guard.

 

[Glennsparky]

Thought about tapping one of the disconnects but I've never tapped off a fused disconnect.
Not sure how I would go about it since I suppose it would be hard to find a double lug for the fused disconnect.

The boss is old school, he likes to use three big horkin split bolts, load side. I like Insulation Piercing Connectors, no tape, less work.

There's usually a bolt on the neutral connector in the disconnect. Get a lug to fit under it and snug it up tight for the EGC.

Lately I've been eyeing Polaris connectors with three terminals. One terminal for each panel and a jumper to the disconnect lug.

 

[jap]

The boss is old school, he likes to use three big horkin split bolts, load side. I like Insulation Piercing Connectors, no tape, less work.

There's usually a bolt on the neutral connector in the disconnect. Get a lug to fit under it and snug it up tight for the EGC.

Lately I've been eyeing Polaris connectors with three terminals. Two for the load hots and a jumper to the disconnect lug.

I've used all of the above and don't like any of them. The PDB's usually work out best in these instances for me.

 

[jap]

Even the PDB's are a last resort for me.

Generallly You can get a feeder from the inside panel if its not too far away, or, changeout the Outside
Enclosed breaker to a Main with feedthru lugs along with some distribution.

 

[hurk27]

Keep in mind there are three requirements in this code and they should not be read together

680.12 Maintenance Disconnecting Means
One or more means to simultaneously disconnect all ungrounded
conductors shall be provided for all utilization
equipment other than lighting.

Requires a disconnect for each piece of utilization equipment (utilization equipment is singular), it requires a that all utilization equipment except lighting is required to have a maintenance disconnect which can be nothing more then a switch located within sight of the piece of equipment.
The "simultaneously disconnect all ungrounded
conductors" is for 240 volt equipment or where one piece of equipment has more then one circuit to it.

Each means shall be readily
accessible and within sight from its equipment and shall be
located at least 1.5 m (5 ft) horizontally from the inside
walls of a pool, spa, or hot tub unless separated from the
open water by a permanently installed barrier that provides a
1.5 m (5 ft) reach path or greater. This horizontal distance is
to be measured from the water’s edge along

requires the such a disconnect is required to be within sight of the equipment it feeds, and can not be closer then 5' from the waters edge.

If the above wasn't true then how would we ever be able to bring out single circuits to pool equipment from inside a house as we are allowed?

There is no requirement to provide a single means of disconnect for all pool equipment, the whole reason it states "one or more means"

 

[kwired]

Even the PDB's are a last resort for me.

Generallly You can get a feeder from the inside panel if its not too far away, or, changeout the Outside
Enclosed breaker to a Main with feedthru lugs along with some distribution.

I like this idea the best. Change one of the existing disconnects to a main breaker panel with feed thru lugs. After thinking about it long enough may have come up with that one myself if it were my project as I have done that before when needing additional circuits in similar situations.

 

[Haji]

But I've been told the strut will rust/corrode at the point it enters the ground.

Most likely. Put a small concrete pillar wrapping the strut at the point it enters the ground to slow down the rusting.

 

[cpinetree]

That's right but I was hoping he would let us know why he felt it needed a main.

Most every pool panel we have ever done is 150amp or less. If tapping from a 200 amp disc it would the wire would need to terminate at a main.

 

[kwired]

Most every pool panel we have ever done is 150amp or less. If tapping from a 200 amp disc it would the wire would need to terminate at a main.

There are some main lug panels rated 150 amp, but majority of them are going to be 125 or 225.

 

[jap]

That is an awkward place and will look even more awkward when the new panel gets mounted to the side
of the steps.

I'd probably install a J-Box undernieth in the crawl space and turn something out and mount to the block
over on the other side of the steps by that crawl hole. but I dont know what all your working against.

 

[cpinetree]

There are some main lug panels rated 150 amp, but majority of them are going to be 125 or 225.

Unless I am more confused :? than normal, or do not fully understand what is trying to be accomplished. The panel being added (tapped from the existing) needs a main.

I do not have the exact wording but this is my understanding:
240.21B(1) or 240.21B(2) the taps need to terminate in a main (either factory or back fed with a hold down)

Please correct my ignorance.:weeping:

 

[jap]

If you tap the 200a feeder to the existing panel with 200a Rated wire and a 200a Rated subpanel then its not actually a tap but an extension of the 200a Feeder. Much like would be the case with a 2 section panel with
feed thru lugs in the 1st section.

 

[kwired]

Unless I am more confused :? than normal, or do not fully understand what is trying to be accomplished. The panel being added (tapped from the existing) needs a main.

I do not have the exact wording but this is my understanding:
240.21B(1) or 240.21B(2) the taps need to terminate in a main (either factory or back fed with a hold down)

Please correct my ignorance.:weeping:

If you tap the 200a feeder to the existing panel with 200a Rated wire and a 200a Rated subpanel then its not actually a tap but an extension of the 200a Feeder. Much like would be the case with a 2 section panel with
feed thru lugs in the 1st section.

Exactly, you no longer have a 240.21(B) described tap if the panel is rated same or higher than the feeder it is connected to.