existing panel replacement

[Daja7]

Wondering how ather areas deal with the following.

We have a lot of older homes that have the panels in a utility closets or laundry room / utility room
a lot of these panels are located over a washer or dryer, or have les than 3" in front. these locations obviously would not be allowed now in new construction but it was the norm back in the 50' 60's. These have always allowed to be replaced in existing location but we have on muni that is starting to turn them down due to the 36" clearance rule. it seem a bit harsh to force the home owner to have to burden the expense of relocating the panel and all the circuits, even if there is a place to do so. Nothing in the code about retro fits or replacements. Is this an issue elsewhere?
How is it handled?

 

[ActionDave]

Around here it is usually handled by putting the washer and dryer in the wood shed, under a tarp until the inspection is complete.

 

[Daja7]

Around here it is usually handled by putting the washer and dryer in the wood shed, under a tarp until the inspection is complete.

we may have to resort to that. not always that easy though. it just seems like some common sense would come into play.

 

[GoldDigger]

we may have to resort to that. not always that easy though. it just seems like some common sense would come into play.

Get a washer/dryer stack to allow for more horizontal space in the room. Smaller and less efficient, but maybe better than relocating the panel.

 

[petersonra]

my panel is in the kitchen behind the refrigerator.

 

[GoldDigger]

my panel is in the kitchen behind the refrigerator.

Refrigerators are usually designed to roll in and out these days. Washers and dryers are not.
Not that that makes a difference to code, I suppose.

 

[petersonra]

Refrigerators are usually designed to roll in and out these days. Washers and dryers are not.
Not that that makes a difference to code, I suppose.

The code says you can't store stuff in the working space. And it says it has to be clear. It doesn't say nothing can ever be in the working space. I know most of us tend to see it like that, but it really does not say that. If it meant that, why would it need to prohibit storage in the working space.

Obviously the intent is that the working space is not always unoccupied, so at least sometimes there can be something or someone there.

I don't see any real difference between a wheeled appliance and one without wheels. It is not real hard to bring in a dolly, and really most washers and dryers are not so heavy that they can't be slid out. Repairmen do it all the time.

 

[iwire]

The code says you can't store stuff in the working space. And it says it has to be clear. It doesn't say nothing can ever be in the working space. I know most of us tend to see it like that, but it really does not say that. If it meant that, why would it need to prohibit storage in the working space.

Obviously the intent is that the working space is not always unoccupied, so at least sometimes there can be something or someone there.

I don't see any real difference between a wheeled appliance and one without wheels. It is not real hard to bring in a dolly, and really most washers and dryers are not so heavy that they can't be slid out. Repairmen do it all the time.

I have no idea what you are trying to say.

 

[MusicMan]

Wondering how ather areas deal with the following.

We have a lot of older homes that have the panels in a utility closets or laundry room / utility room
a lot of these panels are located over a washer or dryer, or have les than 3" in front. these locations obviously would not be allowed now in new construction but it was the norm back in the 50' 60's....

In VA they've always wanted the new panel to be in a location that meets code. Quite a few of the small older houses I've encountered had the panel in one of the bedroom nook closets. Most of the time it was just a simple matter of moving the panel two or three feet out of the nook along the same wall. Keep the old panel box as a large junction box, remove all the guts and blank out all the openings in the dead front. Oh, and probably be a good idea to remove the old grounding system and ground the old box to the new panel.

 

[davidgarrett]

I've run into some similar situations here. The AHJ basically says if I touch it, it has to be brought up to code. So, I would have to move the panel or the washer & dryer to get it done right.

 

[augie47]

The code says you can't store stuff in the working space. And it says it has to be clear. It doesn't say nothing can ever be in the working space. I know most of us tend to see it like that, but it really does not say that. If it meant that, why would it need to prohibit storage in the working space.

Obviously the intent is that the working space is not always unoccupied, so at least sometimes there can be something or someone there.

I don't see any real difference between a wheeled appliance and one without wheels. It is not real hard to bring in a dolly, and really most washers and dryers are not so heavy that they can't be slid out. Repairmen do it all the time.

As with many Code sections, different folks can read it differently, but, to me, 110.26 pretty much says the sapce should remain clear.
110.26 Spaces About Electrical Equipment. Access and
working space shall be provided and maintained about all
electrical equipment to permit ready and safe operation and
maintenance of such equipment

 

[growler]

It doesn't say nothing can ever be in the working space. I know most of us tend to see it like that, but it really does not say that. If it meant that, why would it need to prohibit storage in the working space.

Obviously the intent is that the working space is not always unoccupied, so at least sometimes there can be something or someone there.

They prohibit storage in the work space to prevent people from putting a refrigerator there.

You just try calling for an inspection with the refrigerator in front of a panel and see how that works out.

The work space is ment to be clear at all times but there isn't much that can be done about it after the inspector leaves but that still doesn't make it legal.

 

[growler]

my panel is in the kitchen behind the refrigerator.

OK so you live in this house until you are 80 years old and useing a walker a then a breaker trips in the middle of the night and you just need to reset the breaker.

Codes are not made for the individual but for the general public. I probably wouldn't have any problem moving the refrigerator but there are many people that would.

Also the Fire Department may wish to turn off power even if there is a small fire. Panel is not that easy to find in a house filled with smoke.

 

[petersonra]

They prohibit storage in the work space to prevent people from putting a refrigerator there.

You just try calling for an inspection with the refrigerator in front of a panel and see how that works out.

The work space is ment to be clear at all times but there isn't much that can be done about it after the inspector leaves but that still doesn't make it legal.

Once again - why would they need to explicitly prohibit storage in the working space if the working space had to be vacant 100% of the time anyway? Wouldn't that be redundant?

That suggests to me that it was not intended that the working space has to be 100% vacant all the time.

I am not advocating putting a refrigerator in front of a panel, but I am not completely convinced the way 110.26 is worded completely prohibits it.

The way it is worded would appear to prohibit even a baseboard molding along the floor if we accept this take on it.

 

[charlie b]

This is how I see it: Adding a separate section to explicitly prohibit storing anything within the working space is a way to clarify and emphasize what was meant by the requirement that access be provided and maintained. In the absence of 110.26(B), someone is going to think that keeping a box of junk or a cart or a shelving unit or whatever in front of the panel does not really deny ?access,? because it can be easily moved.

Now this is why I think it is important: Clear working space has two functions. One is to reduce the chances of a worker bumping into something and falling forward so that a hand or arm contacts a live component within the panel. The other is to give the worker room to fall. That is, if your hand accidentally touches a live bus bar, your muscles are going to contract and prevent you from letting go of the bar. It may be that the only thing that can save your life is when you lose total control of all muscles, and as your body falls to the floor the weight of your falling body pulls your hand off the bus bar. If you are leaning over a washer or are wedged between the fridge and the wall (because you didn?t want to take the time or the bother to move the appliance before starting work), then your body would not be able to fall to the floor, and your hand will remain grasping the bus bar.

Bottom line: I think the ?no storage? rule is there to prevent a future electrician from having the option of saying, ?I just need to do this one quick task, so I really don?t need to move this thing out of my way.?

 

[templdl]

my panel is in the kitchen behind the refrigerator.

At least you have to be forced to grab a beer or two before moving the fridge to get to the panel.

 

[growler]

Once again - why would they need to explicitly prohibit storage in the working space if the working space had to be vacant 100% of the time anyway? Wouldn't that be redundant?

That suggests to me that it was not intended that the working space has to be 100% vacant all the time.

I am not advocating putting a refrigerator in front of a panel, but I am not completely convinced the way 110.26 is worded completely prohibits it.

The way it is worded would appear to prohibit even a baseboard molding along the floor if we accept this take on it.

Most people did understand that a 30" working space was required. But many places (schools & restaurants) tended to use electrical rooms as storage closets and still do.

I think the idea of prohibiting storage was to kind of close this loop-hole. ( redundant, maybe)

For commercial the Fire Marshal has the responsibility of keeping these areas clear ( inspections ) but for residential it's just up to the owner or tenant.

 

[growler]

If you are leaning over a washer or are wedged between the fridge and the wall (because you didn?t want to take the time or the bother to move the appliance before starting work), then your body would not be able to fall to the floor, and your hand will remain grasping the bus bar.

Yes and if that washer or frig is still plugged in it would make a very good ground path (frame of appliance).

When working on a live circuit it's nice not to be grounded or to have as much insullation as possible. I wear rubber soled boots and try not to lean against grounded metal objects.