CSST safer in California?

[wondervamp]

I know there is a potential for lightening to strike anywhere but in California it is rare especially in the SF bay area where I reside. I really was not informed about the potential dangers of CSST because I have not encountered it before. I just had a tankless water heater installed at my residence and I was assuming the 1/2" black pipe was going to be replaced with 3/4" black pipe. When I got back, the plumber had installed the CSST in my laundry room starting at the Tee in the ceiling down the wall and stubbed out to the water heater. All in all about 5' in the ceiling and about 9' in the back wall. I mostly was just asking him questions about the safety of the concealed fitting in the ceiling than I started researching the stuff today to find out about lightning caused fires.

To be honest, I am now freaked out about this stuff. My walls are still open and the thoughts of tearing it out and replacing with black iron is running through my mind which unfortunately means opening up the wall more (a lot more) and paying a plumber again to fix. Been bleeding money like crazy on remodel. My main question is lightening the ONLY cause of this stuff failing? I watched a youtube video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Bab5KOUd3U

In addition to bonding at the gas main, he talks about keeping it away from metals which is where the lightening will travel to and jump out looking to ground it self thus creating the hole. In the end, I know I have to make a decision. Sigh

 

[don_resqcapt19]

Code Making Panel #5 says that there is no evidence that the bonding that is required by Fuel Gas Code (NFPA 54) and the manufacturers instructions will prevent the lightning damage. I would not want to have it in my house.

 

[petersonra]

I am not sure there is sufficient evidence to blame the reported failures on lightning.

 

[wondervamp]

Yeah, thanks guys for chiming in. I was up all last night getting to bed at 3am researching this stuff and now can make an educated decision to rip this $h1t out! It may cost me a couple hundred more to get my plumber back (or not) but I want last nights loss of sleep to be my only sleep lost over this issue.

I'm a new union sparky and I have never worked with this stuff because I do zero resi work. Common sense just gave me a heeby jeeby vibe about this stuff upon first sight of his installation before reading any literature on it. It is just too vulnerable...I'm surprised it is even allowed ESPECIALLY in California :jawdropthe land of can't do this/can't do that).
I foresee some radical changes down the road mandating the ban in some places or at least some modifications for sure.

Cheers

 

[Dennis Alwon]

I am not sure there is sufficient evidence to blame the reported failures on lightning.

Oh I think there is evidence as I know of one house here that exploded in flames during the lightning storm that had csst. I have not heard for certain whether any csst that was bonded properly ever had an issue.

 

[wondervamp]

Yup, I think we all here can concur that whether the bonding is a fix for proper installation that this stuff is just too vulnerable (especially since it is so thin) and in my case being enclosed in the walls (slab foundation) that even if it did not explode from lighting that it is just way too risky being encased in sheetrock running wild like that with gas.

It would be gross negligence on my part as an electrician and homeowner knowing what I know about CSST to keep it installed even if it means ripping it out and putting some good ole black iron in and ripping up my wall a bit more.
Well worth it even if it is just for peace of mind.

 

[petersonra]

Oh I think there is evidence as I know of one house here that exploded in flames during the lightning storm that had csst. I have not heard for certain whether any csst that was bonded properly ever had an issue.

There is a good chance that black iron pipe would blow up if it got a direct hit as well.

I think there is reason to believe there might be an issue with this stuff and but I am not convinced that lightning is the issue.

I am also not convinced that the supposed fix really solves the problem.

Does anyone really believe that this stuff would survive a direct hit bonded or not?

 

[Dennis Alwon]

Personally I don't think it would survive a direct hit but there isn't much that could. Often times the lightning is traveling thru something and jumps over to the csst and it splits shooting out flames.

 

[renosteinke]

From the OP's description, I'm not sure CSST was used. It sounds like the plumber simply ran the flexible whip up into the wall.

While similar, the appliance whips and CSST are not the same thing at all.

I recommend the OP get one of the "Code Check" books, and compare his situation to the 'typical' installations in their artwork.

 

[don_resqcapt19]

From the OP's description, I'm not sure CSST was used. It sounds like the plumber simply ran the flexible whip up into the wall.

While similar, the appliance whips and CSST are not the same thing at all.

I recommend the OP get one of the "Code Check" books, and compare his situation to the 'typical' installations in their artwork.

I don't think that the flexible gas connections are permitted to be run in the wall or even pass through a floor.

 

[curt swartz]

I don't think that the flexible gas connections are permitted to be run in the wall or even pass through a floor.

Correct. I also have never seen a 9' flexible supply line either. I'm sure the OP has some form of CSST.

Now that HD and Lowes are selling CSST I'm sure we are going to see a lot more handyman and DIY installs of gas lines.

 

[wondervamp]

From the OP's description, I'm not sure CSST was used. It sounds like the plumber simply ran the flexible whip up into the wall.

While similar, the appliance whips and CSST are not the same thing at all.

I recommend the OP get one of the "Code Check" books, and compare his situation to the 'typical' installations in their artwork.

No, there is not doubt that the stuff that is in my ceiling and walls is IN FACT CSST.

 

[Galt]

In Wi. We can't conceal any black pipe fittings so sometimes there is no alternative. However if you put some thought into it you can figure out routes for the pipe with no buried fittings.

 

[Fulthrotl]

Yup, I think we all here can concur that whether the bonding is a fix for proper installation that this stuff is just too vulnerable (especially since it is so thin) and in my case being enclosed in the walls (slab foundation) that even if it did not explode from lighting that it is just way too risky being encased in sheetrock running wild like that with gas.

It would be gross negligence on my part as an electrician and homeowner knowing what I know about CSST to keep it installed even if it means ripping it out and putting some good ole black iron in and ripping up my wall a bit more.
Well worth it even if it is just for peace of mind.

well, black iron pipe has held up pretty well over the years.
and, if you have an industrial orientation, just set the threader
up tighter than sparky loose, use some key lock, and have at it yourself.
hand tight for gas is two full turns.

dunno if i'd get bunched undies about lighting strikes, but anything that
is really thin with natural gas inside it gives one pause for thought.

lightning is also really fickle. it hops in pretty random order from one thing to another.

when i re piped the pool heater and put in stuff for gas fire rings and such, i used black iron pipe.

 

[hurk27]

I am not sure there is sufficient evidence to blame the reported failures on lightning.

There has been hundreds of reports of lightning damage to CSST, the evidence was the holes melted into the wall of the pipe to which could not be explained by any other method other then an arc of high level.

There is also evidence of the same type of damage and fires after bonding as per manufacture instruction.

The only bonding that was shown to be effective that I saw a diagram of was where low impedance (at high frequency) down leaders were installed from all high points of flues and chimneys that went through the roof structures, these down lead were also bonded to the appliances including the fire places, water heaters and the like, and to the gas pipe at the appliances as well as the CSST manifolds and incoming gas lines, as well as to the electrical grounding system and its electrodes, it basically gave the lightning energy a parallel lower impedance path to follow to earth then the CSST did, these down conductors were not regular round conductors we use but flat braided cable used in lightning protection systems, this diagram was posted a few times on here and maybe when I have more time I will try to find it.

The point is that by the time you spend the money to properly protect this stuff, the cost savings of using it are worthless, it will cost more to protect it then it will to run it.

I know the University of Florida where I studied lightning was asked to do a study on it, but I have never heard any out come, and figured they might not want to get into a legal tangle with the manufactures of this stuff and have just steered clear.

One of the problems is that not many understand lightning with that it being a high frequency event it can follow paths that are resonate to the frequency of the strike at the time of the event, this is why we see it sometimes follow what we think are very high impedance paths like phone wires and cable, even though they were bonded to a much bigger conductor at a shorter distance from the point of attachment, so we see the engineers of these company's throw some grounding requirements out there that would work if we were dealing with DC or 60hz, but with lightning were not, and is why we will still see fires and explosions with CSST because these engineers don't have a clue.

Apply RF theory to lightning and you will start to have an idea of what lightning is about.

If your not sure about this, just tune any HF radio to an empty part of the band and you can hear lightning from hundreds to even thousands of miles away, it makes a great arc radio transmitter.

I'm with Don, I would not want this stuff in my house even if it was only 3' long!

 

[Sahib]

I think a direct lightning hit to CSST would puncture it and not a flow of lightning current through a properly bonded CSST.

 

[drive1968]

You could call your local fire station and ask about the frequency of houses being struck by lightning which resulted in a fire. You don't even need to narrow it down to fires caused by natural gas or CSST. If you call several fire stations in the Bay Area and not one has even heard of such an event, it might save you the time and money of replacing something that is safe.

 

[texie]

I know there is a potential for lightening to strike anywhere but in California it is rare especially in the SF bay area where I reside. I really was not informed about the potential dangers of CSST because I have not encountered it before. I just had a tankless water heater installed at my residence and I was assuming the 1/2" black pipe was going to be replaced with 3/4" black pipe. When I got back, the plumber had installed the CSST in my laundry room starting at the Tee in the ceiling down the wall and stubbed out to the water heater. All in all about 5' in the ceiling and about 9' in the back wall. I mostly was just asking him questions about the safety of the concealed fitting in the ceiling than I started researching the stuff today to find out about lightning caused fires.

To be honest, I am now freaked out about this stuff. My walls are still open and the thoughts of tearing it out and replacing with black iron is running through my mind which unfortunately means opening up the wall more (a lot more) and paying a plumber again to fix. Been bleeding money like crazy on remodel. My main question is lightening the ONLY cause of this stuff failing? I watched a youtube video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Bab5KOUd3U

In addition to bonding at the gas main, he talks about keeping it away from metals which is where the lightening will travel to and jump out looking to ground it self thus creating the hole. In the end, I know I have to make a decision. Sigh

Here is a link to a report on this issue: http://www.nfpa.org/research/fire-p...n-of-installation-methods-for-csst-gas-piping
It is rather long and detailed but may be of interest to many. After a perusal of said report and other reports I have seen, I would not want it in my house either.

 

[mgookin]

As to what can survive a direct hit from lightning, pretty much nothing can. Lightning travels through miles of free air before it gets to you; you're not going to stop it.

But we don't make buildings "fireproof" or "floodproof". We use a degree of safety reasonable to accomodate the 99% probability of a problem.

A better question is what magnitude of a hit can something withstand. With respect to the gas piping, the black iron can withstand a greater hit than the CSST. It's a choice of how much risk you're willing to take. I prefer to have extra smoke detectors and even emergency lighting in my 70 year old wood frame home; most people would never spend that money.

Sounds like OP wants a higher degree of safety than CSST offers. Black iron it is.

 

[drive1968]

That NFPA document is really informative. There are some states where CSST has had some documented incidents, such as Indiana, Texas and Florida, but in California, there were zero reported incidents. Lightning and CSST in California, especially in the Bay Area, is practically a non-issue according to the NFPA document.