Which GFCI commentary will you use NEC handbook/NFPA Analysis of Change?

[mwm1752]

Here we go, The NEC commentary does not coincide with the IAEI comments in the analysis of Changes. Both are NFPA associated. Whom is correct?

210.8 Ground-Fault Circuit-Interrupter Protection for Personnel
Ground -fault circuit-interrupter protection for personnel shall be provided as required in 210.8(A) through (D). The groundfault circuit-interrupter shall be installed in a readily accessible location.
(A) Dwelling Units. All 125-volt, single-phase, 15- and 20-ampere recept acles installed in the locations specified in 210.8(A)(1) through (10) shall have ground-fault circuitinterrupter protection for personnel. (6) Kitchens ? where receptacles are installed to serve the countertop surfaces
2014 NEC Handbook Code Commentary; Receptacles installed for disposals, dishwashers, and trash compactors are not required to be protected by GFCIs. A receptacle(s) installed behind a refrigerator is installed to supply that appliance, not the countertop, and is not covered by this GFCI requirement.
(7) Sinks ? where receptacles are installed within 1.8 m (6 ft) of the outside edge of the sink
2014 NEC Handbook Code Commentary; Sinks in kitchens are not the only sinks where a ground-fault shock hazard exists; therefore, this requirement covers all other sinks in a dwelling. any 125-V, 15- or 20-A receptacle installed within 6 feet of a sink located in other than a kitchen is also required to be GFCI protected.
2014 Analysis of Changes; A revision to 210.8(A)(7) for GFCI protection for dwelling unit sinks removes the words ?located in areas other than kitchens? to require GFCI protection for all 125-volt, single-phase, 15- and 20-ampere receptacles installed within 1.8 m (6 ft) of the outside edge of dwelling unit sinks (including kitchen sinks).
For the 2011 NEC, the title was simplified to just ?Sinks,? but excluded kitchen sinks as the GFCI provisions for kitchen sinks was covered at 210.8(A)(6) and this list item only required GFCI protection for receptacles that served a kitchen countertop and did not intend GFCI protection for such things as a receptacle under the kitchen sink for a garbage disposal, even though that garbage disposal receptacle might be within 1.8 m (6 ft) of the outside edge of dwelling unit kitchen sink. Now, for the 2014 NEC, this provision was expanded to all dwelling unit sinks (including the kitchen).
As an example, GFCIprotection will now be required for a receptacle outlet that supplies the
kitchen disposal under the kitchen sink.

 

[LEO2854]

Here we go, The NEC commentary does not coincide with the IAEI comments in the analysis of Changes. Both are NFPA associated. Whom is correct?

210.8 Ground-Fault Circuit-Interrupter Protection for Personnel
Ground -fault circuit-interrupter protection for personnel shall be provided as required in 210.8(A) through (D). The groundfault circuit-interrupter shall be installed in a readily accessible location.
(A) Dwelling Units. All 125-volt, single-phase, 15- and 20-ampere recept acles installed in the locations specified in 210.8(A)(1) through (10) shall have ground-fault circuitinterrupter protection for personnel. (6) Kitchens ? where receptacles are installed to serve the countertop surfaces
2014 NEC Handbook Code Commentary; Receptacles installed for disposals, dishwashers, and trash compactors are not required to be protected by GFCIs. A receptacle(s) installed behind a refrigerator is installed to supply that appliance, not the countertop, and is not covered by this GFCI requirement.
(7) Sinks ? where receptacles are installed within 1.8 m (6 ft) of the outside edge of the sink
2014 NEC Handbook Code Commentary; Sinks in kitchens are not the only sinks where a ground-fault shock hazard exists; therefore, this requirement covers all other sinks in a dwelling. any 125-V, 15- or 20-A receptacle installed within 6 feet of a sink located in other than a kitchen is also required to be GFCI protected.
2014 Analysis of Changes; A revision to 210.8(A)(7) for GFCI protection for dwelling unit sinks removes the words ?located in areas other than kitchens? to require GFCI protection for all 125-volt, single-phase, 15- and 20-ampere receptacles installed within 1.8 m (6 ft) of the outside edge of dwelling unit sinks (including kitchen sinks).
For the 2011 NEC, the title was simplified to just ?Sinks,? but excluded kitchen sinks as the GFCI provisions for kitchen sinks was covered at 210.8(A)(6) and this list item only required GFCI protection for receptacles that served a kitchen countertop and did not intend GFCI protection for such things as a receptacle under the kitchen sink for a garbage disposal, even though that garbage disposal receptacle might be within 1.8 m (6 ft) of the outside edge of dwelling unit kitchen sink. Now, for the 2014 NEC, this provision was expanded to all dwelling unit sinks (including the kitchen).
As an example, GFCIprotection will now be required for a receptacle outlet that supplies the
kitchen disposal under the kitchen sink.

The text of the NFPA 70 is what we should be going by.


The commentary is just an opinion and is not the code.

 

[GoldDigger]

The text of the NFPA 70 is what we should be going by.


The commentary is just an opinion and is not the code.

I do not see a clear inconsistency between the the two commentaries. Receptacles for dishwashers, disposals, etc. are not required to have GFCI simply because of what the receptacles are supplying. But if the receptacles are under, and within the specified radius of a sink, they are required to be GFCI for that reason.
I would be interested in the CMP discussion to see what they thought they were requiring. In particular, whether receptacles enclosed in a cabinet under a sink are intended to be covered along with more generally accessible (i.e. countertop or undercounter) receptacles.

 

[roger]

The text of the NFPA 70 is what we should be going by.


The commentary is just an opinion and is not the code.

Agreed.

Roger

 

[JDB3]

So, if the area on the back side of the kitchen sink has a receptacle on it within 6 feet of the sink, it has to be GFCI protected? :?

 

[cadpoint]

So, if the area on the back side of the kitchen sink has a receptacle on it within 6 feet of the sink, it has to be GFCI protected? :?

In you case Yes, think of an appliance with the cord length, the NEC states the requirement to be met of within 6'-0".
It doesn't say back from or forward to.

Besides your in BIG CABIN Aspen, The kitchen is always a cool place to hang out!

 

[LEO2854]

So, if the area on the back side of the kitchen sink has a receptacle on it within 6 feet of the sink, it has to be GFCI protected? :?

I do not have a copy of the 2014 yet,but I believe it does say that in 210.8.

maybe someone could post all of 210.8 in the 2014 NEC.

 

[texie]

I do not see a clear inconsistency between the the two commentaries. Receptacles for dishwashers, disposals, etc. are not required to have GFCI simply because of what the receptacles are supplying. But if the receptacles are under, and within the specified radius of a sink, they are required to be GFCI for that reason.
I would be interested in the CMP discussion to see what they thought they were requiring. In particular, whether receptacles enclosed in a cabinet under a sink are intended to be covered along with more generally accessible (i.e. countertop or undercounter) receptacles.

In the case of the dishwasher it has to be GFCI regardless of proximity to a sink and has to be GFCI even if hardwired. Note that the text says outlet, not receptacle.
I think I see a lot of faceless GFCI being mounted someplace like a garage wall near the panel as they also have to be readily accessible, not just accessible.

 

[cadpoint]

In the case of the dishwasher it has to be GFCI regardless of proximity to a sink and has to be GFCI even if hardwired. Note that the text says outlet, not receptacle.
I think I see a lot of faceless GFCI being mounted someplace like a garage wall near the panel as they also have to be readily accessible, not just accessible.

Your first sentence goes againest the stated Code. School me! I had to read it three times to catch it but it's commentary, yes I'm slow!

In respects to the second sentence:
The OP is asking about 2014, your 2nd statements don't exactly match the conversation, but I will say that some smart electricians have been into what you've seen in or of the basement...

 

[LEO2854]

In the case of the dishwasher it has to be GFCI regardless of proximity to a sink and has to be GFCI even if hardwired. Note that the text says outlet, not receptacle.
I think I see a lot of faceless GFCI being mounted someplace like a garage wall near the panel as they also have to be readily accessible, not just accessible.

Not sure why anyone would go to all that trouble,why not use a GFCI circuit breaker?

 

[cadpoint]

I've said it a few times, there will be one circuit left in structures for real power/ ok fine unabridged power!

 

[texie]

Not sure why anyone would go to all that trouble,why not use a GFCI circuit breaker?

Because it also has to be AFCI.
I do hear of from NEMA that manufacturers are working on a combo GFCI/AFCI breaker.

 

[LEO2854]

Because it also has to be AFCI.
I do hear of from NEMA that manufacturers are working on a combo GFCI/AFCI breaker.

Ah ha!,good point

Boy I can't wait for the price on those breakers..:slaphead::lol:

 

[texie]

Your first sentence goes againest the stated Code. School me! I had to read it three times to catch it but it's commentary, yes I'm slow!

In respects to the second sentence:
The OP is asking about 2014, your 2nd statements don't exactly match the conversation, but I will say that some smart electricians have been into what you've seen in or of the basement...

Yes, I'm talking the 2014. Art. 210.8(D) says outlet. That means hardwired or cord and plug will need to be GFCI. And the proximity of a sink is moot. Just for good measure it also has to be AFCI (210.12(A).

 

[cadpoint]

Frankly you missed it, this is like this long day, a gulp moment; the editors where asleep! Can one edit the errata on commentary, it's more like, I don't know!

 

[texie]

Ah ha!,good point

Boy I can't wait for the price on those breakers..:slaphead::lol:

I can just see those NEMA guys salivating over this-a whole new profit center.

 

[LEO2854]

I can just see those NEMA guys salivating over this-a whole new profit center.

Agreed they sure love..

:lol:

 

[mwm1752]

The text of the NFPA 70 is what we should be going by.


The commentary is just an opinion and is not the code.

So how do you interprete?

 

[mwm1752]

In the case of the dishwasher it has to be GFCI regardless of proximity to a sink and has to be GFCI even if hardwired. Note that the text says outlet, not receptacle.
I think I see a lot of faceless GFCI being mounted someplace like a garage wall near the panel as they also have to be readily accessible, not just accessible.

I believe only in non residential occupancies & yes in residential if powered by a recept

 

[mwm1752]

Frankly you missed it, this is like this long day, a gulp moment; the editors where asleep! Can one edit the errata on commentary, it's more like, I don't know!

agree