Grinder pump wiring

[crtemp]

I have a question of whether or not I will need a disconnect for this. I have a 12-2 and a 14-2 stubbed out on the side wall of a house that will be used for power for a grinder pump system. The 12-2 will be 240 volt power for the pump and the 14-2 is 120 volt power for the alarm box. Where the wires are stubbed out is not within site of the tank. The only box that came with the tank is a 120 volt alarm box. The pump itself inside the tank has a 240 volt male cord that plugs into a female receptacle inside the tank. My question is do I need a disconnect next to the alarm box? The only thing that this box does is have power for a float that tells the pump to turn on or off. Is this considered a motor controller? The 240 volt wires will just be junctioned inside this box as well but they don't actually hook up to anything in it. Do I need a disconnect within site of the tank if it is cord and plug connected? The pump is 2 horsepower.
Thanks

 

[Smart $]

A motor controller is required to have a disconnecting means within sight of the controller. There are a few exceptions, but I don't see any as applying to your situation [430.102(A)].

 

[crtemp]

That's pretty much what I was reading too. Just wanted to make sure I did it correctly. Thank you

 

[augie47]

The factory cord and plug that are a part of your pump is acceptable locally.

 

[GerryB]

Is it for a septic system? I have a grinder pump in my septic and have seen another with no disconnect. The pump is not readily accessible but it is hard wired.

 

[Smart $]

The factory cord and plug that are a part of your pump is acceptable locally.

And true in most jurisdictions... but that only qualifies as the motor disconnect. The controller disconnect is a completely separate requirement. However, controller disconnect is permitted to serve as the motor disconnect if it is within sight of the controller, motor, and driven machinery... but not vice-versa.

 

[crtemp]

Is it for a septic system? I have a grinder pump in my septic and have seen another with no disconnect. The pump is not readily accessible but it is hard wired.

Not really a septic but similar. It's just a holding tank before it gets pumped into the city sewer system

 

[augie47]

And true in most jurisdictions... but that only qualifies as the motor disconnect. The controller disconnect is a completely separate requirement. However, controller disconnect is permitted to serve as the motor disconnect if it is within sight of the controller, motor, and driven machinery... but not vice-versa.

You are correct. Most of the grinder pumps I see don't really have a "controller", but a float/cord/plug/receptacle all built in and that was what I pictured. If there is indeed a controller, there would need to be a disconnect ahead of said controller. If the "controller" is a float which becomes a part of the pump cord/plug, then I don't see the need for any additional disconnect.

 

[Smart $]

You are correct. Most of the grinder pumps I see don't really have a "controller", but a float/cord/plug/receptacle all built in and that was what I pictured. If there is indeed a controller, there would need to be a disconnect ahead of said controller. If the "controller" is a float which becomes a part of the pump cord/plug, then I don't see the need for any additional disconnect.

I agree.

 

[renosteinke]

I don't see any way for your proposed design to be legal, let alone good design. Mind you, I am assuming this is a submersible pump.

Cord & plug? There is no way that the connections will not be corroded to bits in a rather short time. Your box will fill with crud, the cord / wires will swell and change color, and you'll have a real mess.

I don't know how you plan to control this pump, but it looks like a recipe for flooding.

Time to stand firm on 'good design.'

Good design, in this case, has three elements you're missing: Connection box, pump control, and control panel.

The connection box should be a Quartzite-type box - I use the small round ($50) fiberglass ones where ever I can), positioned next to the pump pit. There's a gravel bed under the handhole, and a pair of LARGE 90's exiting the bottom and entering the side of the pit. Make the pipes large, because the cables will swell and cement themselves into smaller pipe- making future float replacement difficult. One pipe is for the floats and one is for the pump itself. Connect wires using ordinary wire nuts you have dipped / painted in Scotchkote.

Multiple floats will control the pump and trigger the alarm. Three floats: Pump off, pump on, and alarm.

Now you run two pipes underground to your control panel. I am extremely fond of the ones made by SJE Rhombus; your local plumbing house should have them- or you can order direct. Cost should be under a grand- and worth every penny. http://www.sjerhombus.com/ses-controls-ez-series-details.php?ID=1 You also want to mount a 120v convenience receptacle near the control panel.

Cost too much? Too much work? Cry me a river .... let that pit overflow ONCE and everyone will be wishing they had listened to you. Let some other hack take the grief for 'doing it cheap.' If they're using a grinder pump, there will be stoppages.

One disadvantage to single-phase pumps is that you cannot easily reverse the direction the pump turns. This means you cannot easily break up any clogs / tangles. You'll have to pull the pump and clear clogs by hand.

BTW: Are your HIV inoculations up to date?

 

[crtemp]

I don't see any way for your proposed design to be legal, let alone good design. Mind you, I am assuming this is a submersible pump.

Cord & plug? There is no way that the connections will not be corroded to bits in a rather short time. Your box will fill with crud, the cord / wires will swell and change color, and you'll have a real mess.

I don't know how you plan to control this pump, but it looks like a recipe for flooding.

Time to stand firm on 'good design.'

Good design, in this case, has three elements you're missing: Connection box, pump control, and control panel.

The connection box should be a Quartzite-type box - I use the small round ($50) fiberglass ones where ever I can), positioned next to the pump pit. There's a gravel bed under the handhole, and a pair of LARGE 90's exiting the bottom and entering the side of the pit. Make the pipes large, because the cables will swell and cement themselves into smaller pipe- making future float replacement difficult. One pipe is for the floats and one is for the pump itself. Connect wires using ordinary wire nuts you have dipped / painted in Scotchkote.

Multiple floats will control the pump and trigger the alarm. Three floats: Pump off, pump on, and alarm.

Now you run two pipes underground to your control panel. I am extremely fond of the ones made by SJE Rhombus; your local plumbing house should have them- or you can order direct. Cost should be under a grand- and worth every penny. http://www.sjerhombus.com/ses-controls-ez-series-details.php?ID=1 You also want to mount a 120v convenience receptacle near the control panel.

Cost too much? Too much work? Cry me a river .... let that pit overflow ONCE and everyone will be wishing they had listened to you. Let some other hack take the grief for 'doing it cheap.' If they're using a grinder pump, there will be stoppages.

One disadvantage to single-phase pumps is that you cannot easily reverse the direction the pump turns. This means you cannot easily break up any clogs / tangles. You'll have to pull the pump and clear clogs by hand.

BTW: Are your HIV inoculations up to date?

I didn't design or build the thing. I have nothing to do with it other than wiring it. The cord and plug connections are in a sealed junction box inside. I don't see how it would corrode.

 

[GoldDigger]

I guess that our standard mental picture of a cord and plug connection does not include a sealed enclosure.
On a separate topic, does the methane gas inside make this a classified environment?

Sent from my XT1080 using Tapatalk

 

[ActionDave]

One disadvantage to single-phase pumps is that you cannot easily reverse the direction the pump turns. This means you cannot easily break up any clogs / tangles. You'll have to pull the pump and clear clogs by hand.

BTW: Are your HIV inoculations up to date?

I'm off to spend some quality time with the wife so I won't go into everything I want to discuss except for these two.

Single phase 240V motors are easy to reverse you just switch two wires. Most lift pumps do not reverse anyway.

I work with our municipal guys on all the sewer lifts around town. Neither I nor them has to get any extra vaccinations.

 

[crtemp]

I guess that our standard mental picture of a cord and plug connection does not include a sealed enclosure.
On a separate topic, does the methane gas inside make this a classified environment?

Sent from my XT1080 using Tapatalk

its a junction box I've never seen before. I wasn't expecting to see a receptacle inside it when I opened it up. It came with potting compound so I'm assuming it's to seal the holes where the cords enter. I was only able to look at the system for about 5 minutes the other day so I couldn't get to involved in it. Basically I just wanted to make sure I would be okay with not having the disconnect within site of the pump because they changed the location of the tank without telling me.
I just need to give them a bid and was hoping to not have to move my circuits to somewhere where they could be seen from the tank.

 

[Joe Villani]

I guess that our standard mental picture of a cord and plug connection does not include a sealed enclosure.
On a separate topic, does the methane gas inside make this a classified environment?

Sent from my XT1080 using Tapatalk

Residential systems are unclassified.

NFPA 820 Table 4.2

 

[tom baker]

HIV is a fragile virus. Hepatitis C is the one to worry about. Make sure you get a Hep C shot. All our sewer workers got Hep C many years ago.

 

[ActionDave]

HIV is a fragile virus. Hepatitis C is the one to worry about. Make sure you get a Hep C shot. All our sewer workers got Hep C many years ago.

Yes. Hep C and tetnis updates are standard for us.

 

[renosteinke]

Correct, Tom ... I was referring to two forms of hepatitis that sewage work places you at risk of catching. One is carried by sewage, and the other is associated with needles. Sewage pits almost always collect needles. Forgive me for confusing HIV (Herpes) with hepatitis. Firms like Roto-Rooter make sure their guys get the shots.

As for others' comments:

I can't speak for others, but I'll be sure of my shots before I work with sewage.

240v single-phase motors have only two wires (plus the ground), and they're both hot. Reversing them by swapping leads would be a neat trick! If anyone thinks they're going to break open a sealed submersible pump to fiddle with the starting winding, they've spent too much time in confined spaces.

A plug and receptacle in a sealed box? How does the plug get into the box?

Even so, I'm cynical when it comes to sealing anything to keep sewage out. There's just too much room for Murphy's Law. Fill it with potting compound / silicone / etc.? Lots of luck if you ever need to take it apart .... and you will.

I've worked on plenty of sewage systems, and many had receptacles or junction boxes within the sump. My experience has convinced me this is a very bad idea.

I've described what works. You may be able to re-invent the wheel here; it's your choice.

 

[GoldDigger]

Correct, Tom ... I was referring to two forms of hepatitis that sewage work places you at risk of catching. One is carried by sewage, and the other is associated with needles. Sewage pits almost always collect needles. Forgive me for confusing HIV (Herpes) with hepatitis. Firms like Roto-Rooter make sure their guys get the shots.

A plug and receptacle in a sealed box? How does the plug get into the box?

1. You have now confused HIV (which causes AIDS) with HPV (which is not herpes either: http://www.cdc.gov/std/hpv/stdfact-hpv.htm). Herpes comes in two common forms: Herpes simplex or HSV (cold sores) and Herpex zoster (shingles) which is caused by the varicella zoster (chicken pox) virus.

As for hepatitis, A, B and C are all viral but totally different viruses: http://www.webmd.com/hepatitis/default.htm?names-dropdown=VT
A: Survivable, transmitted primarily via feces, effective vaccine exists.
B: Survivable but may become chronic, transmitted by needles and skin contact, effective vaccine exists.
C: Usually chronic, but treatable with difficulty, transmitted by needles or blood contact, NO vaccine.

2. "How does the plug get into the box?"
Simple: You bring the wire into the box through a seal fitting, attach the plug to it, place the plug into the receptacle and put the sealing cover back on the box. It is a large box.

 

[augie47]

A common method for household grinder pumps here is 12x12 PVC box with a receptacle mounted inside and a 2" PVC nipple to the pump well. The plug and associated float adapter are pulled thru the 2" and plugged in to the box receptacle. The 2" is sealed with various compounds.