Is it a PV Disconnect or a PV Service Disconnect?

Status
Not open for further replies.

jaggedben

Senior Member
Location
Northern California
Occupation
Solar and Energy Storage Installer
"We" didn't determine anything of the sort. Someone mentioned that in this thread (I don't recall who that was at present).

If 2014 code has specified 690.14 only applies to the DC portion of the PV system, then there will be a lack of correlation between 230, 250, and 690... unless other sections of 230, 250, and/or 690 were modified to handle such. I don't have the 2014 yet, so cannot comment further at this time.

You're forgetting that 705 lays out the requirements for disconnecting means for inverter output circuits. To me it makes a lot of sense that the DC side should be in 690 and the AC side in 705 and little-to-no crossbreeding between the two. 705 applies to all inverters whether powered by solar, wind, fuel cells, etc. 690 applies only to solar.
 

jaggedben

Senior Member
Location
Northern California
Occupation
Solar and Energy Storage Installer
...
Beyond what we have discussed here, bonding in both places would put current on the ECG between the two points if there were any on the neutral, which is, I thought, what we are not supposed to do. Are you saying that the ECG from the inverter should terminate in the disco and not be carried back to the MDP?

...

Well, you should either have an EGC or a bonded neutral, not both. I can see both interpretations (Holt and Wiles) having merit here, as long as the installer picks one and follows code accordingly. If you mix both together, then you really have problems.
 

jaggedben

Senior Member
Location
Northern California
Occupation
Solar and Energy Storage Installer
Well, I take exception to these drawings. Diagram 4 and 5 says it is a 4 wire service yet no neutral is shown but rather an EGC. There should be no EGC on the line side, only a bonded neutral. There is no such thing as a service with an EGC on the line side. The diagrams imply a 4 wire Y service with a grounded neutral. That green wire should be a white or gray neutral sized per 250.66.
It is worth noting, however that they do show a bond.

You should look at the diagrams again, as they're totally in agreement with you. They show precisely what you're saying they should show. There's no EGC on the line side either diagram 4 or 5, rather there's a white wire that's bonded at the disco.
 

texie

Senior Member
Location
Fort Collins, Colorado
Occupation
Electrician, Contractor, Inspector
Actually, the service-entrance conductors to the PV System Disconnect are service tap conductors, that is, if they are of an ampacity rating less than the service rating.

Again, it is not an "EGC" [from the PV System Disconnect] to the MDP (Service Disconnect). It is a bonding jumper. If you read 250.102(C)(1) you will discover it is sized per 250.66.

Between PV System Disconnect and inverter(s), it can be either an EGC sized per 250.122 (which does not preclude a separate GEC) or an EGC/GEC combo sized per 250.66.

I disagree, these are not a tap in the eyes of the NEC. These are service conductors. Period.

Let's use a simple example. Picture a service with 2 disconnects. Disco 1 is for the service. Disco 2 is for the supply side PV connection. Your design implies that you are going to bond the neutral in disco 1. In disco 2 you are going to leave the neutral unbounded and install a bonding jumper from disco 2 EG bar to the EG bar in disco 1. This violates 250.24(C) and for very important reasons due to the current path of a fault.

Now just assume the same setup except that disco 2 is not used as a PV disco, but rather as just another building main. Any competent inspector would laugh you off the job.
 

texie

Senior Member
Location
Fort Collins, Colorado
Occupation
Electrician, Contractor, Inspector
You should look at the diagrams again, as they're totally in agreement with you. They show precisely what you're saying they should show. There's no EGC on the line side either diagram 4 or 5, rather there's a white wire that's bonded at the disco.

I stand corrected. Mine view of this on screen was a little fuzzy. I saw the service on the left and the inverter on the right, which of course is backwards. Yes, the diagrams back my position and they look correct and properly bonded per 250.24(C).
I thought you were saying in you previous post that they did not back my position?
 

Smart $

Esteemed Member
Location
Ohio
You're forgetting that 705 lays out the requirements for disconnecting means for inverter output circuits. To me it makes a lot of sense that the DC side should be in 690 and the AC side in 705 and little-to-no crossbreeding between the two. 705 applies to all inverters whether powered by solar, wind, fuel cells, etc. 690 applies only to solar.
Not I am not forgetting. Article 705 is regarding interconnected power sources, so it should only cover the interconnecting... which includes the disconnect between systems and any special provisions for the systems being interconnected.

However, because it only covers the interconnecting, it is lacking in disconnecting means being located where conductors enter (or exit*) a building... and by all rights, that should be covered in the Article covering the particular source.

*In the case of interconnected sources, I believe it is often overlooked that power can be from either direction. As such, it doesn't matter whether you consider the conductors as entering or exiting the building, there has to be a disconnect at any entry or exit point where the conductors may be energized from either direction.
 

shortcircuit2

Senior Member
Location
South of Bawstin
Correct. A GEC is not required. However, a supply-side bonding jumper is. See 250.96 and 250.102(C)

I don't see how either of these sections are relevant to the discussion. Sections 250.96 and 250.102(C) are under Part V of article 250 which covers Bonding. This has little to do with System Grounding, the Grounding Electrode Conductor or the Main Bonding Jumper. Part V of article 250 directs on the methods for bonding equipment and the proper sizing of bonding jumpers.
 

texie

Senior Member
Location
Fort Collins, Colorado
Occupation
Electrician, Contractor, Inspector
It I could have one wish on this matter I would love to have the following people comment on this thread:
Mike Holt
Tim McClintock (NFPA)
Steve Arne (Arne Electro Tech)
John Wiles

I will be at a meeting next month with Tim and I'll see if I can get him to take a stand on this.
 

shortcircuit2

Senior Member
Location
South of Bawstin
*In the case of interconnected sources, I believe it is often overlooked that power can be from either direction. As such, it doesn't matter whether you consider the conductors as entering or exiting the building, there has to be a disconnect at any entry or exit point where the conductors may be energized from either direction.

I do understand that power goes both ways. (I refer to it as a 2-way street)

There is no requirement as the NEC reads now that requires a disconnect at the point where the AC power enters the building if we look at it from the point of view that the disconnect is only a "PV Disconnecting Means"

But if the NEC would recognize the disconnect as a "Service Disconnecting Means" then the rules 230.70 would apply. (Along with the other requirements for service equipment) Thereby creating a safe installation.

This is important, because the side of the street coming from the Utility Source has a dangerous level of fault current.
 

ggunn

PE (Electrical), NABCEP certified
Location
Austin, TX, USA
Occupation
Consulting Electrical Engineer - Photovoltaic Systems
This is important, because the side of the street coming from the Utility Source has a dangerous level of fault current.

And only from that direction. If a system is designed correctly the conductors are sized such that the inverter is incapable of endangering them with overcurrent.
 

Smart $

Esteemed Member
Location
Ohio
I do understand that power goes both ways. (I refer to it as a 2-way street)

There is no requirement as the NEC reads now that requires a disconnect at the point where the AC power enters the building if we look at it from the point of view that the disconnect is only a "PV Disconnecting Means"

But if the NEC would recognize the disconnect as a "Service Disconnecting Means" then the rules 230.70 would apply. (Along with the other requirements for service equipment) Thereby creating a safe installation.

This is important, because the side of the street coming from the Utility Source has a dangerous level of fault current.
I am not against the NEC requiring the PV System Disconnect, where connected to the supply side of the service disconnecting means, to meet the requirements of a Service Disconnecting Means, whether a Main Bonding Jumper is excepted or not. But that's just my opinion, and not what the 2011 NEC supports.
 

jaggedben

Senior Member
Location
Northern California
Occupation
Solar and Energy Storage Installer
...
If 2014 code has specified 690.14 only applies to the DC portion of the PV system, then there will be a lack of correlation between 230, 250, and 690... unless other sections of 230, 250, and/or 690 were modified to handle such. I don't have the 2014 yet, so cannot comment further at this time.

Not I am not forgetting. Article 705 is regarding interconnected power sources, so it should only cover the interconnecting... which includes the disconnect between systems and any special provisions for the systems being interconnected.

However, because it only covers the interconnecting, it is lacking in disconnecting means being located where conductors enter (or exit*) a building... and by all rights, that should be covered in the Article covering the particular source.

*In the case of interconnected sources, I believe it is often overlooked that power can be from either direction. As such, it doesn't matter whether you consider the conductors as entering or exiting the building, there has to be a disconnect at any entry or exit point where the conductors may be energized from either direction.

I still think you're off base with this line of comments.

First of all, in addition to you're overlooking 705, there's also 690.15 (and, somewhat related, 690.56).

As far as service entrance conductors, they are covered by 230.70(A)(1). This is true regardless of whether they are allowed under one of the exceptions to 230.40 or not. So much for covering the safety of unprotected service conductors in a building.

To repeat, 690.14 covers the DC side. So much for covering the safety of unprotected circuits inside a building that are energized by the sun.

All other AC circuits for utility-interactive inverters can be covered by all the other rules for AC feeders and branch circuits, separate structures, yadda yadda yadda. There's no additional safety concern about an AC circuit being energized by multiple sources, because for practical purposes a utility-interactive inverter output circuit is not energized from the inverter side. The disconnecting means for the service entrance conductors de-energizes the entire AC circuitry energized by the service.

This leaves only inverters with stand-alone capabilities, which are covered by 690.10 and arguably 702. Those code sections probably need some improvement, but that's really not the issue that has made this thread go on and on.
 

Smart $

Esteemed Member
Location
Ohio
I still think you're off base with this line of comments.
Well you are certainly entitled to your opinion :sleep:

First of all, in addition to you're overlooking 705, there's also 690.15 (and, somewhat related, 690.56).
Again, not overlooking 705 or 690.15 or 690.56. None of these cover disconnect location with respect to entering a building... which is what my "line of comments" is about.

As far as service entrance conductors, they are covered by 230.70(A)(1). This is true regardless of whether they are allowed under one of the exceptions to 230.40 or not. So much for covering the safety of unprotected service conductors in a building.
I can go with that... as long as no one confuses this with meaning the disconnect is a Service Disconnect... after all, 230.70 is the first section in Part VI. Service Equipment ? Disconnecting Means... and this is where the confusion starts.

To repeat, 690.14 covers the DC side. So much for covering the safety of unprotected circuits inside a building that are energized by the sun.
Regardless of modifications in the 2014 NEC to make this distinction, the 2011 Code makes no such distinction. Additionally, how do you account for 690.14(D)(2), (3), & (4) if 690.14 is only for the DC side...???
 

jaggedben

Senior Member
Location
Northern California
Occupation
Solar and Energy Storage Installer
Again, not overlooking 705 or 690.15 or 690.56. None of these cover disconnect location with respect to entering a building... which is what my "line of comments" is about.

Perhaps I misunderstood you, but I took your 'lack of correlation' statement to mean you thought that either the various code sections were in conflict, or that there is some important safety issue that they collectively overlook with respect to conductors entering a building. I don't agree with that. 230 covers service conductors, 690 covers DC PV conductors, and that covers the safety issues that are particular to PV systems.

Regardless of modifications in the 2014 NEC to make this distinction, the 2011 Code makes no such distinction. Additionally, how do you account for 690.14(D)(2), (3), & (4) if 690.14 is only for the DC side...???

I interpret the word "photovoltaic" to apply only to the DC side. 690.14(D)(2) is the only part of 690.14 that specifically references an AC disconnect, and it is noteworthy that it does not contain the word "photovoltaic". Nearly every other requirement in 690.14 does, and I have no problem applying 690.14(A) to both AC and DC because it doesn't.
 

Smart $

Esteemed Member
Location
Ohio
Perhaps I misunderstood you, but I took your 'lack of correlation' statement to mean you thought that either the various code sections were in conflict, or that there is some important safety issue that they collectively overlook with respect to conductors entering a building. I don't agree with that. 230 covers service conductors, 690 covers DC PV conductors, and that covers the safety issues that are particular to PV systems.
The part of the discussion you interjected yourself in was regarding the possibility of non-correlation in the 2014, which I had not even read at that point.As for the rest of your comment, 230 does cover service conductors, but because the PV System Disconnect is not a Service Disconnect, its location(s) is(are) not covered by Article 230, Part VI. That means its location(s) have to be covered by 690 or 705... and 705 does not cover its location. Article 690 covers photovoltaic systems... which includes both DC and AC portions of said system.

I interpret the word "photovoltaic" to apply only to the DC side. 690.14(D)(2) is the only part of 690.14 that specifically references an AC disconnect, and it is noteworthy that it does not contain the word "photovoltaic". Nearly every other requirement in 690.14 does, and I have no problem applying 690.14(A) to both AC and DC because it doesn't.
Sorry to disagree, but isolated usage of the term photovoltaic does not limit any requirement's coverage to just the DC portion. While the proposer and/or panel may have that intent, it is not implicit noted or inferred. In some cases the combined term photovoltaic system is used, and to me that infers without doubt it is regarding the entire system.

There are several "holes" in your interpretation. First, 690.14 general statement uses the isolated term photovoltaic in regards to (A) through (D). Second, 690.14(C) general statement uses the combined term photovoltaic system. And then 690.14(D)(2) & (3) are regarding AC disconnecting means... and (3) in particular states "an additional alternating-current disconnecting means for the inverter shall comply with 690.14(C)(1)."

The only requirements under 690.14 that I can see as applying only to the DC portion are 690.14(B) and 690.14(D)(1).

FWIW, I just had a quick look at 2014's 690.13 and 690.14. I'm not yet sure whether it provides any true improvement... :blink:
 
Last edited:

Zee

Senior Member
Location
CA
Good discussion.
Most of it went over my small head.:dunce: :p

I just want to offer my take on 690.13 and 14.

1.
Could 690.13 and 690.14 be more clear? Yes. A LOT MORE.

2.
The 2014 NEC added "dc" to the first sentence of 690.13:
"Means shall be provided to disconnect all current-carrying dc conductors of a pv system....."
Couldn't we stop here?

3.
It never mentions "ac".

4.
Then the title of 690.14 references 690.13, using the wording employed above:
"Add'l provisions. PV DISCONNECTING MEANS shall....."
hence dc is meant also.

4. Furthermore "pv system conductors" and "pv system" are referred to repeatedly.
Granted, neither "PV System" nor "PV system conductors" is a defined term.
However, "PV system voltage" is.
It refers to dc voltage only.

5.
At the end under (D) it does deal with ac, by explicitly saying so. It mentions both " utility interactive inverters" for teh first time and "ac conductors".

This passage has caused so much confusion over the past decade and a half!:slaphead:
 

jaggedben

Senior Member
Location
Northern California
Occupation
Solar and Energy Storage Installer
230 does cover service conductors, but because the PV System Disconnect is not a Service Disconnect, its location(s) is(are) not covered by Article 230, Part VI.

The language of 230.70 clearly contradicts this statement. It refers specifically to disconnecting service entrance conductors in the "General" portion. If the location requirements that follow do not apply specifically to the aforementioned disconnecting means then much of the NEC can be reduced to meaningless nonsense. This is true even if we might think that the supply-side PV system disconnect is not subject to all the other rules for service disconnecting means (i.e 270.71 thru 270.81.)

(Meanwhile it's really hard to argue that 270.71, specifically, does not apply to PV system disconnects, given the following sentence:
"The service disconnecting means for each
service permitted by 230.2, or for each set of service entrance
conductors permitted by 230.40, Exception No
.1,
3, 4, or 5, shall consist of not more than six switches or sets
of circuit breakers, or a combination of not more than six
switches and sets of circuit breakers, mounted in a single
enclosure, in a group of separate enclosures, or in or on a
switchboard.")


That means its location(s) have to be covered by 690 or 705... and 705 does not cover its location.

Not true. 705.22 requires that it be "Located where readily accessible." 705.70 covers inverters in not-readily accessible locations (and, notable to this discussion, makes 690.14(D) redundant).
And that is the extent of the location requirements specific to the AC disconnects for interconnected power production sources in the NEC.
Which I think is good.

Article 690 covers photovoltaic systems... which includes both DC and AC portions of said system.

Nowhere in 690 does it define AC conductors as part of a PV system. The only 'AC portion' of a PV system is an inverter. See also the definition of "Electrical Production and Distribution Network", which strongly implies mutual exclusivity between the PV system and the AC distribution network.

Sorry to disagree, but isolated usage of the term photovoltaic does not limit any requirement's coverage to just the DC portion.[etc. etc.]

As Zee pointed, 690.14 is mightily unclear on which disconnects it does and does not apply to, because it uses undefined terms. I think my interpretation that "photovoltaic" applies to "photovoltaic" source and output conductors is at least as reasonable as any interpretation that they apply to conductors that do not carry photovoltaic voltages and currents. Moreover, the fact that "photovoltaic systems" are not defined as including AC distribution generally leads me to believe that neither the terms "photovoltaic" or "photovoltaic systems" should be generally construed as applying to any purely AC equipment or conductors. So, except when 690 explicitly uses the acronym 'ac' , or other language that reasonably includes ac (such as 'all sources'), I think it's not supportable to assume a general application of requirements to the AC side of things. Again, that stuff is mostly covered in 705 now, and for good reason.

Yes, this is an interpretation, but it's at least as reasonable as any opposing one. The code needs to be cleared up if we want to have less reliance on interpretations. I hope we can at least agree that the reason we are having this argument is that 690.14 uses vague and undefined terms.

FWIW, I just had a quick look at 2014's 690.13 and 690.14. I'm not yet sure whether it provides any true improvement... :blink:

Well, I hope I don't agree when I get around to that. ;)
 

Smart $

Esteemed Member
Location
Ohio
The language of 230.70 clearly contradicts this statement. It refers specifically to disconnecting service entrance conductors in the "General" portion. If the location requirements that follow do not apply specifically to the aforementioned disconnecting means then much of the NEC can be reduced to meaningless nonsense. This is true even if we might think that the supply-side PV system disconnect is not subject to all the other rules for service disconnecting means (i.e 270.71 thru 270.81.)
Please describe how the title to Part VI relates to 230.70. Additionally, what word precedes each instance of disconnect, or derivations thereof, in every subsection of 230.70?

(Meanwhile it's really hard to argue that 270.71, specifically, does not apply to PV system disconnects, given the following sentence:
"The service disconnecting means for each
service permitted by 230.2, or for each set of service entrance
conductors permitted by 230.40, Exception No
.1,
3, 4, or 5, shall consist of not more than six switches or sets
of circuit breakers, or a combination of not more than six
switches and sets of circuit breakers, mounted in a single
enclosure, in a group of separate enclosures, or in or on a
switchboard.")
I'll acknowledge your point on this one... but I think it's a literal error which I cannot argue without doing a bunch of research, and likely will end without any resoundingly conclusive evidence anyway.

Nonetheless, I'll counter with 690.14(D)(3), which requires the AC disconnecting means comply with 690.14(C)(1)... and...
690.3 Other Articles. Wherever the requirements of other
articles of this Code and Article 690 differ, the requirements
of Article 690 shall apply and, if the system is operated in
parallel with a primary source(s) of electricity, the requirements
in 705.14, 705.16, 705.32, and 705.143 shall apply.

.... ;)

Not true. 705.22 requires that it be "Located where readily accessible." 705.70 covers inverters in not-readily accessible locations (and, notable to this discussion, makes 690.14(D) redundant).
And that is the extent of the location requirements specific to the AC disconnects for interconnected power production sources in the NEC.
Which I think is good.
Man, you're really pushing the envelop to make your point :happyyes:. Installing the disconnect in a readily accessible location has very little to do with the disconnect being located outside the building or inside adjacent the conductor entry point.... and I believe the point is more that it be readily accessible rather than just accessible.


Nowhere in 690 does it define AC conductors as part of a PV system. The only 'AC portion' of a PV system is an inverter. See also the definition of "Electrical Production and Distribution Network", which strongly implies mutual exclusivity between the PV system and the AC distribution network.
So an Inverter Output Circuit is excluded from Article 690 requirements? Refer to definitions of 690.2.

As Zee pointed, 690.14 is mightily unclear on which disconnects it does and does not apply to, because it uses undefined terms. I think my interpretation that "photovoltaic" applies to "photovoltaic" source and output conductors is at least as reasonable as any interpretation that they apply to conductors that do not carry photovoltaic voltages and currents. Moreover, the fact that "photovoltaic systems" are not defined as including AC distribution generally leads me to believe that neither the terms "photovoltaic" or "photovoltaic systems" should be generally construed as applying to any purely AC equipment or conductors. So, except when 690 explicitly uses the acronym 'ac' , or other language that reasonably includes ac (such as 'all sources'), I think it's not supportable to assume a general application of requirements to the AC side of things. Again, that stuff is mostly covered in 705 now, and for good reason.
Believe as you may... but as long as you continue this path, I will disagree. :jawdrop:

Regarding AC distribution, that does not occur until you get to the load side of a Solar Photovoltaic System disconnect (i.e., one which outputs AC).

Yes, this is an interpretation, but it's at least as reasonable as any opposing one. The code needs to be cleared up if we want to have less reliance on interpretations. I hope we can at least agree that the reason we are having this argument is that 690.14 uses vague and undefined terms.
Reasonable, yes. The end result of your interpretation exhibits very little difference to mine.

Well, I hope I don't agree when I get around to that. ;)
I'm really at a loss in understanding this comment, much less offer a response... :?

The only thing I can surmise is that you like to debate the issues.... :cool:
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top