2014 Code - GFCI Devices Must Be Readily Accessible

[Leo1]

I do not have the 2014 Code yet, but in the November 2013 NEC it cites the 2014 code, article 422.5 requires GFCI devices be accessible. What is meant by accessible? Does the refrigerator GCFI have to be exposed along the kitchen counter top or other exposed locations but not behind the refrigerator like they have been for years? Can the new GFCI requirement for the garage disposal and dishwasher remain under the sink, access by opening a cabinet door? Or does it have to be along the kitchen counter top?

I suppose for larger homes that have a pantry perhaps we could install the GFCIs for the refrigerator, garage disposal, dishwasher, microwave, etc. in the pantry and install downstream receptacles for the respective appliances, this will keep the clutter of extra receptacles out of the kitchen.

As for AFCI, yes I know they are required for the appliances above. I think I will address the AFCI requirement via AFCI CBs in the load-centers until Square D or Siemens make an approved combination AFCI and GFCI versus the current combination AFCI only.

 

[GoldDigger]

I do not have the 2014 Code yet, but in the November 2013 NEC it cites the 2014 code, article 422.5 requires GFCI devices be accessible. What is meant by accessible? Does the refrigerator GCFI have to be exposed along the kitchen counter top or other exposed locations but not behind the refrigerator like they have been for years? Can the new GFCI requirement for the garage disposal and dishwasher remain under the sink, access by opening a cabinet door? Or does it have to be along the kitchen counter top?

I suppose for larger homes that have a pantry perhaps we could install the GFCIs for the refrigerator, garage disposal, dishwasher, microwave, etc. in the pantry and install downstream receptacles for the respective appliances, this will keep the clutter of extra receptacles out of the kitchen.

As for AFCI, yes I know they are required for the appliances above. I think I will address the AFCI requirement via AFCI CBs in the load-centers until Square D or Siemens make an approved combination AFCI and GFCI versus the current combination AFCI only.

IMHO, the GFCI cannnot be behind the refrigerator if the refrigerator would have to be moved to access it. Use a GFCI breaker or put a receptacle GFCI somewhere else along the wall. A dead front GFCI could be used at a location where a receptacle would not be allowed.

There does not seem to be any consensus yet about the GFCI under the sink.

 

[ActionDave]

IMHO, the GFCI cannnot be behind the refrigerator if the refrigerator would have to be moved to access it. Use a GFCI breaker or put a receptacle GFCI somewhere else along the wall. A dead front GFCI could be used at a location where a receptacle would not be allowed.

There does not seem to be any consensus yet about the GFCI under the sink.

So if the fridge sat out far enough from the wall that you could push the test button could it be behind the fridge? To me it would meet the definition readily accessible.

Where does this madness end!

 

[jxofaltrds]

I do not have the 2014 NEC but I started this:

http://forums.mikeholt.com/showthread.php?t=158474

 

[mwm1752]

So if the fridge sat out far enough from the wall that you could push the test button could it be behind the fridge? To me it would meet the definition readily accessible.

Where does this madness end!

No counters on either side so your frig is in the middle of a wall? Does sound like madness -- We'll probably see Combo AFCI breakers & multiple GFCI faceless devices near the panel to incorporate the NEC 2014 -- I'm feeling this is the least expensive way with out industry creating a AFCI/GFCI combo breaker -- Do I have a witness

 

[kwired]

View attachment 9547

I do not have the 2014 NEC but I started this:

http://forums.mikeholt.com/showthread.php?t=158474

Now we are supposed to know where portable furniture will be placed?

And what about if a toaster is sitting on a kitchen counter in front of a GFCI:happyno::happyno:

Some people take these rules too literally, and I do understand it is what it says, it is still stupid.

 

[kwired]

I do not have the 2014 Code yet, but in the November 2013 NEC it cites the 2014 code, article 422.5 requires GFCI devices be accessible. What is meant by accessible? Does the refrigerator GCFI have to be exposed along the kitchen counter top or other exposed locations but not behind the refrigerator like they have been for years? Can the new GFCI requirement for the garage disposal and dishwasher remain under the sink, access by opening a cabinet door? Or does it have to be along the kitchen counter top?

I suppose for larger homes that have a pantry perhaps we could install the GFCIs for the refrigerator, garage disposal, dishwasher, microwave, etc. in the pantry and install downstream receptacles for the respective appliances, this will keep the clutter of extra receptacles out of the kitchen.

As for AFCI, yes I know they are required for the appliances above. I think I will address the AFCI requirement via AFCI CBs in the load-centers until Square D or Siemens make an approved combination AFCI and GFCI versus the current combination AFCI only.

I would first like to know where you got a November 2013 NEC? Most of us just have a ....2005, 2008, 2011 and 2014 or at least will soon have a 2014.

GFCI's were required to be readily accessible in the 2011 NEC, not in art 422 but in 210.8 where general requirements where GFCI is mentioned. Now that can be taken to mean that GFCI's not required by 210.8 would not be required to be readily accessible. Not sure if anything was added in 422 or not, but if so it may mention it needs to be readily accessible because it wouldn't be covered by the requirement in 210.8

 

[jxofaltrds]

Now we are supposed to know where portable furniture will be placed?

And what about if a toaster is sitting on a kitchen counter in front of a GFCI:happyno::happyno:

Some people take these rules too literally, and I do understand it is what it says, it is still stupid.

The picture is wrong. It does not apply to 210.8

 

[mwm1752]

Now we are supposed to know where portable furniture will be placed?

And what about if a toaster is sitting on a kitchen counter in front of a GFCI:happyno::happyno:

Some people take these rules too literally, and I do understand it is what it says, it is still stupid.

This went from a dedicated space for a frig to ranting quotes above -- Pic deals with AFCI's -- You may run into an AHJ that might want the AFCI not behind a piece of furniture ( have your final prior to placement ) Personally I would use common sense in the application and I would hope the installer would have too in order to advoid conflict. My job is enforcement and if you have never done it before can be very frustrating with new codes -- You tell me where the line should be drawn in order to meet readily accessible per code definition? I've seem 800 lbs safes(piece of movable furniture) with rollers covering up recepts, have your wife move it out of the way to reset the AFCI. Not all codes are applicable all the time

 

[kwired]

This went from a dedicated space for a frig to ranting quotes above -- Pic deals with AFCI's -- You may run into an AHJ that might want the AFCI not behind a piece of furniture ( have your final prior to placement ) Personally I would use common sense in the application and I would hope the installer would have too in order to advoid conflict. My job is enforcement and if you have never done it before can be very frustrating with new codes -- You tell me where the line should be drawn in order to meet readily accessible per code definition? I've seem 800 lbs safes(piece of movable furniture) with rollers covering up recepts, have your wife move it out of the way to reset the AFCI. Not all codes are applicable all the time

I understand, but not all inspections happen when the building is vacant either. I think some rewording is necessary, even just the space around a panelboard has been a problem for years. IMO if it can be easily moved it is not a violation of clear spaces. Any inspector ever fails an installation because something as simple as a broom is leaned against the wall in the clear space necessary for a panel --- he is getting that broom shoved in places I can't say here:happyyes: Common sense has to come into play sometime, and would be nice to start out in the wording of the NEC somehow, but that is the problem any changes in wording creates liability issues for someone at some point, so changes are seldom made that factor in common sense.

 

[ggunn]

I understand, but not all inspections happen when the building is vacant either. I think some rewording is necessary, even just the space around a panelboard has been a problem for years. IMO if it can be easily moved it is not a violation of clear spaces. Any inspector ever fails an installation because something as simple as a broom is leaned against the wall in the clear space necessary for a panel --- he is getting that broom shoved in places I can't say here:happyyes:

OTOH, in my last job I went out a few times with crews retrofitting restaurant electrical systems with EMS equipment. Very frequently we would find their tiny electrical rooms used as storage areas with boxes, spare furniture, cleaning supplies, etc. crammed in and piled to the ceiling directly in contact with the MDP and sub panels. Each box or whatever could be easily moved, but there were a lot of them.

 

[cowboyjwc]

Wow we sure do get worked up by some silly stuff. Some of the reasons for the wording, is they didn't want you putting the GFCI where the garage door opener receptacle is or things like that. Are you sure that the picture you are using as reference isn't for hotels and motels? No one knows where the furniture is going. In my family room every single receptacle is behind a piece of furniture.

 

[kwired]

OTOH, in my last job I went out a few times with crews retrofitting restaurant electrical systems with EMS equipment. Very frequently we would find their tiny electrical rooms used as storage areas with boxes, spare furniture, cleaning supplies, etc. crammed in and piled to the ceiling directly in contact with the MDP and sub panels. Each box or whatever could be easily moved, but there were a lot of them.

Happens all the time, and can you blame people for what they may not know? If you really want to keep this from happening you could put the equipment outdoors, which would not be all that desired in most cases because of appearance, maybe security or convenience purposes as well, or they at least could have fire inspectors enforcing the workspace requirements on periodic visits. If not then that is just a problem that will keep coming up.

Does the panel in your own home have absolutely nothing infringing the work space requirements at all times? The one in my home - most of the time is clear but not always. The one in my shop - is almost always blocked with something, as things hang on the wall around that one, and floor space in front of it is very unpredictable as to what may be there at times. I don't lose any sleep over either one of those though.

 

[Leo1]

I would first like to know where you got a November 2013 NEC? Most of us just have a ....2005, 2008, 2011 and 2014 or at least will soon have a 2014.

GFCI's were required to be readily accessible in the 2011 NEC, not in art 422 but in 210.8 where general requirements where GFCI is mentioned. Now that can be taken to mean that GFCI's not required by 210.8 would not be required to be readily accessible. Not sure if anything was added in 422 or not, but if so it may mention it needs to be readily accessible because it wouldn't be covered by the requirement in 210.8

Apologies I meant the November 2013 ECM.

 

[roger]

As far as this requirement in residential settings is concerned, it's wasted ink the same as 210.21(B)(2) is. What are we going to do, have inspectors with search warrants bust into people's homes to see where their furniture has been placed?


Roger

 

[kwired]

As far as this requirement in residential settings is concerned, it's wasted ink the same as 210.21(B)(2) is. What are we going to do, have inspectors with search warrants bust into people's homes to see where their furniture has been placed?


Roger

Wasted pixels and any required energy for displaying it, for those who primarily use electronic viewing devices to read the code:happyyes:

 

[jxofaltrds]

Just an example of an incorrect Power Point picture.

The picture implies that you can't put a GFCI behind furniture, that is incorrect. You can.

Might have to start handing out Lisinopril.

 

[kwired]

Just an example of an incorrect Power Point picture.

The picture implies that you can't put a GFCI behind furniture, that is incorrect. You can.

Might have to start handing out Lisinopril.

You just can't recess them 3 inches in from the finish wall surface

:angel:

 

[roger]

You just can't recess them 3 inches in from the finish wall surface

:angel:

I can.

Roger

 

[GoldDigger]

Is there any code requirement that you have to be able to press the test and reset buttons without a tool?

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